#burnn!

Notes before reading: This is the second part of the Kaoru and Toshiya interview done by You Masuda for BURRN!! October 2020 Issue released last September 4th. You can read the first part here.

You can support and get the magazine at Amazon Japan or CDJapan.

Feel free to correct me if you spot any mistake or any confusing parts. ------ (1st part here) -Once the video (‘The World of Mercy) is completed, it will become a big thing as well. However, since that song should have closed the flow of the 'The insulated world' in the first place, if it appears again in the future, it is possible that the flow becomes odd for some reason. K: That’s right. Originally, we were planning to complete the feeling of the album at Pia Arena. But actually, that’s not possible. Although we have to use this video for future activities, we have to think about what kind of presentation should be done for it. The song itself is a thing of the past, we can’t simply go like “we are publishing it (the video) for the people just because we made a clip”, it’s not interesting anymore. The heat of the enthusiasm has cool down a little. -In the meantime, the next single and its consequent video are coming out. But whatever the future is, you are about to start producing your next album.  Is the idea/concept already there? K: Well, little by little. Currently I don’t feel like we have many songs yet. From this month (August), we are supposed to start marking songs properly. -For example ’The World of Mercy’, will it be part of the next album? K: No, it won’t be included. After all, this song is the conclusion of ‘The insulated World'’. -In terms of discography, it will be a bit independent from the next album. T: I think it’s like that. In that sense, it will be like 'Ain't afraid to die'. (Note: This song is a single released in 2001 to conclude the flow from 'Macabre’ and is not included in any of the original albums.) K: Well, that's fine, right?  Probably we won’t need it for the next album (laughs) -No, of course, I'd be happy if there were as many new songs as possible. It’s not like I’m not convinced that this song won’t be included in the next album but, whatever happens in the future with your live activities, from a creative perspective is it ok to think that  flow from the album (The Insulated World) is over with this song? K:  Of course. However, I think there will be also some flow  similar to this song. That's because 'The World of Mercy 'is simply closer in time than 'The Insulated World'. But well, I don't know what will happen (laughs) -As we discussed earlier, there was also a sense of continuity in the lyrics. In recent years one of the most remarkable things that’s being said is that “there is no correct answer”, “A lie could be also the truth for a person” or something like “It may be true if you keep believing in it, even if you suspect that it may be wrong”. I felt some sense of contradiction. So, at the end of the two nights in Yokohama, I felt like you were hinting at something  with the line “Ill feelings will continue coming”, a variation on the lyrics of “Sustain the Untruth”. K: That’s simply  because it was the last song at the end of the show, like creating the image of playing it with the audience while the lights were on (Note: they used live footage for this song at the broadcasting). It was just this song  because it wasn’t included the day before. However, when it comes to lyrics, there are moments that you can think about it  in that way. -A two-night performance that was supposed to end leaving such an aftertaste. But without closing the previous flow, “Ochita koto ga aru no sora” comes into the world and goes on. I'm looking forward to it while I was imagining how is it going to be. A concrete thing about this single again is that  you have had Brian Gardner as mastering engineer for some time, right? This might be the first time you have teamed up with Josh Wilbur, who was in charge of mixing this time. Does this mean that it was the right timing to do it? K: That's right. He is very popular, so we never had a chance to work with him. It seemed possible this time, so we decided to ask him for the first time. Well, he is quite of a “on my own way" type of person. Like, he plays with the sound as he feels. The first time he sent us back what he created, we were like “what the hell is this?” (laughs) -You really didn’t see that coming, right? K: That’s right. Even if the song was processed just a little, at first there were parts that it was like “what?” “this can’t be good” (laughs). After all,  as he is a person who also does pop music, don’t you have a tendency to try to do such things? -In short, in these times, processing like that is a way to create an upgraded form (of the song) K: Actually, I don’t know if I would say that it is an “upgraded” form.  Somehow, it’s like he doesn’t want to leave it as it is. -He is simply not someone that just says, “I will make it sound good”. K: That’s right. T: Yes. Maybe he is someone who wants to leave a mark in the sounds he makes. I guess he is that type of person. But when I heard the sound that came back from the first mix he did, I thought it was "interesting". It was too different from our previous approach, but it was interesting from an objective point of view. However, at first, we sent him a provisional mix made here in Japan, telling him we wanted it to sound “like that”. Usually, the song would be sent back with that feeling (as we requested). As it came back with a completely different direction, it was like  a shoot and I was struck by it. I was a bit surprised. -You don't know what kind of person he was until you actually try to team with him. K: Yes. At first, we thought it would take him some time to do it. But as he is a person working in many things, as we told him the appropriate things, we thought he would do it properly. Actually, he sent it back to us quickly. So, when it comes to that, if we told him “please do this thing here”, he sent it back (done) soon. -In short, at first, he may not be the type of person that at the time of sending it back to you, sends you something “safe”. It’s like he doesn’t want to do it in a safe way. K: That might be true. But at first the sound of the band itself was strongly metal. -Do you mean more than what it was? K: Yes. Like the drums…. the drums were much sloppier than the final version ones. I feel like I overlooked his intentions a bit. -However, if you are in a situation where you can work by exchanging data, even if the returned idea is not what you were looking for, you will realize "Oh, can turn out like this?"  Even if it's not the correct answer for you right now, it may be a hint for someday. K: Certainly, there were moments like that. However, although it is exciting in itself, we had a strong consciousness that we were actually doing it, so I didn’t expect that much (laughs) Wanting to do it “more like this” comes out first. However, if I listen to it again later, I think that the “Oh, I see” feeling will come out. "No, we don't know that yet. It's just a song that was completed as a single. It starts from here though” Kaoru -It must have been meaningful to you to know what kind of work he would do. You said “he is a person working in many things” but he turned out to be a person that doesn’t do everything in a smooth/safe way. K: Yes. On the contrary, there are some people who won’t take the song to the extend that you want even if you can see the answer (final result) from the beginning and tell them “how about this?”. In that sense, I guess he was well suited for the task. -It’s hard to point out the specific difference from your usual sound but, after all, something feels different. K:That's right. Moreover, somehow isn’t the existence of the song itself already big?  I thought it would be difficult to put it out like that, so I thought it was he someone who would do it.

- You can hear Kyo’s mid-range singing very well. The lyrics of those parts also come up clearly.

K: Yes. But that doesn’t mean that some sound is being cut off there. Everything is coming out in a really clean way. That’s why I feel like he (Josh Wilbur) is a person who knows how to produce all kind of sounds.

-Yes. If you look at the works he has done in the past, it's not just heavy rock, it's very diverse in musical terms. (Note: The list of artists he has worked with includes not only LAMB OF GOD, MEGADETH, TRIVIUM, but also P!Nk and Faith Hill.) DIR EN GREY has had many opportunities to work with several engineers this way, but for the future….

K: We want to continue working with him. If he tried with the single and it worked out well, the next step would be the album. I wish we could find someone who would like to work with us on the next album, but I'm not sure if he will take care of it. It’s depends on what we will do in the future until we find someone like him who can do it.

- If all goes well in the future, I think you should be able to tell us about the next album you are already picturing in your imagination in a few months.  Do you think the production schedule wouldn’t have changed in the first place, even if this first domestic tour or the two-night performance in Yokohama were held as scheduled?

K: That's right.

-In other words, do you mean that you will be absorbed in production the album this year?

K: That’s right. Well, as a matter of fact, I feel that we can do nothing but to move in a different way under this situation. At least, isn’t it hard to think about doing new lives? If there were more live shows that have already been scheduled, we would think about what to do with them. In our case, we cancelled the tour, didn't we? For the time being, there are venues where the postponement is still on hold and there are other venues that are actually still booked. But, well, in the current situation, the question is if new lives should be announced at those places (that are booked).

- At the same time, even if there is a not officially announced live schedule, it does not necessarily mean you should do it in the way you originally thought.

K: Yes. So, in the end it's likely that it will be postponed again and if that happens, I think we should hold the venue again sometime next year There are a lot of things to think about, and in fact, all we talk about now is how we're going to move.

- Actually right now, is there anything left to announce after the two-night performance at Pia Arena?

K: That’s it. There is nothing that can be announced now.

- Even if you make a release schedule, the situation will be different depending if you can play lives or not. Of course, if you have a situation in which you can play lives as before, you'll want to do it as soon as possible, but we are waiting for that to be possible….

K: We are in a difficult position, aren’t we? How long should we wait?  For example, if this situation continues next year, I feel like it’s going to be complicated for us. We can't wait forever, but we can't force it ourselves. So, I can only say that it depends on the situation. For example, you're planning a tour in winter right now. Normally, we would have to announce it soon, right? But in the current situation, that is not possible. If we decide and announce it right away, we will sell the ticket according to the guidelines*  at that moment, but actually no matter when you restart doing lives, I don't think we can announce it with the minimum time in advance, and I think the guideline itself will change in the future if we announce it with months in advance. To sell the tickets according to the guidelines at that time, you would have to do (the lives) in a short span of time, like a month later.

*Japan's guidelines for events (concerts, sports events...) are measures to prevent the spread of Corona virus.  These measures  limits the venue capacity and  advocate for social distancing among other things. However, the guidelines is not  legally enforced.  

-For example, in the future, in a seated venue, you can only perform if there is an interval (empty seats) between attendees, and in such a situation, the picture that comes to your mind when you imagine a live will be different. In that case, I guess that it’s hard that this fits the way of doing lives that you have been trying to do until now.

K: That's right.

T: I think everyone has no choice but to explore the options. Of course, the idea of ​​playing lives normally should still be there, but I think we should explore other ideas as well. That's why…...there are many unclear parts, but the current situation is that it cannot be clarified. As this happens, I think there is no choice but to think about the possibilities in both directions. So, if we can do something interesting, I think we should do it, and if we can play lives in a safe environment…. the guideline may change again, but of course I want to do it right away.

-I hope the situation where we can enjoy live performances as before will return, and I hope  you will be able to do what you were trying to do this year in a similar way  in the future. When that time comes, it will be an upgraded form.

K: Of course. In fact, we are always thinking about a year ahead, no, even more…Of course, there are plans that we will keep. However, we are not sure if these things can be done as we planned. But well, we work on the premise that we can do it, and if we can't do, there will a right time for it.

-When the right time comes, you may have to do all at the same time, what you originally thought you would do and the things that you were putting aside too.

K: Yes, that too (laughs)

T: That can be tough, though.

-As soon as the touring ban is lifted, and each band restarts their live activities at once….

T: That's a difficult thing, isn't it?

K: That’s why….it might the same from the audience’s perspective but, it also depends on how much the people around the artist and live staff can resist. I want them to endure this situation until somehow, we can play live without worrying about it. What should we do so they can endure it? The hardest thing would be that they weren’t there when we can play lives again. That's why…. I hope everyone can survive this situation somehow.

You can buy the magazine here Part 1/3 here.

Notes: Finally I decided to do it in 3 parts so I can post another part and dedicate more time to the edit the last one. I hope you enjoy it. This translation was hard to do so please feel free to correct me.

-Around that time, you could hear the response from overseas. With Withering to death in your hands, the movements from overseas became specific. Looking back to this album, How do you feel about it?  I think that in that era DIR EN GREY got a sophisticated shape.

T: Yes. My interpretation is that in VULGAR the songs were made with the heaviness of DIR EN GREY in the air. This time I think we wanted to use that heavy feeling while putting in some pop elements. That it wasn’t just a feeling of heaviness and darkness. In the middle of that weight, we were seeking a feeling of sprint. Somehow, I think we got such a thing to release in that time.

-I see. I think without VULGAR, withering to death wouldn’t have existed. In fact, I think that the songs which stand out are the ones you added the pop and melancholic aesthetic elements in their heaviness.

T: It could be seen as an extension of VULGAR but actually it spreads it in a lot of different ways. For me, the song which symbolizes Withering to Death is “C”. Because it’s a song that couldn’t be part of VULGAR. That rhythmical melody is something that it’s not in the previous album. Putting these melodies in this album, it made it not just heavy but also had a sublime feeling.

-It may be part of it as well but I think that the union of so-called heavy rock and visual kei in the proper sense of the word, made that this album had a complete form.

T: That may be true. A band in Japan, making that kind of material….in that album, I feel like we were able to rise to that point.

-While you were proud of the things you could do, it was good you could go overseas.

T: Yes, we were lucky.

-In May 2005 you flew for the first time to Europe and got great success in the one man show in Berlin. However, looking back at that time, it was said that the band might have disbanded without the experience lived in Europe. In other words, is it possible that once completed an album with such a sense of pride it became difficult to see the path to follow?

T: In some way, it was like that. But, it was like that after every album not just Withering to death. However, without doubts it’s because this album was able to jump out from Japan that we could go overseas. Also, performing in such a big festival like ROCK AM RING in Germany….it was an unprecedented response, isn’t it?

-Yes.  You could say you could treat it as something extraordinary.

T: We were in a circumstance that we couldn’t understand well, the feelings were really strong. It was really shocking we could even go to these places. And play in front of these people. Besides, it wasn’t just the kind of people we were used to have around. There was a point I was frightened to death*. I even asked myself “why?”. *He uses “気が動転する” which can be translated as “being frightened to death” or “losing your mind for something shocking”.

-However, the first performance in Berlin which tickets were sold out the same day they were put on sale, became such a chaos that even police and ambulances had to come. Also, the ROCK AM RING experience was bitter. Your performance was too early.

T: Also, people who came to watch the one-man performance were the ones in the front row. Well, I can only say it was crazy. Maybe it was good because from that point I started to think about a lot of things. Personal things but also band related. In a sense, it was a wrong guess but I thought that this would become the future standards of the band. Well, it felt like everyone was like “let’s think about what we should do to get here”. There was such a feeling. But of course, I don’t mean that we talked about that openly.

-You didn’t have a talk about that?

T: We didn’t. However, I think that is something that each of us felt in our skin.

-Then, the response to all this was THE MARROW OF A BONE?

T: That’s it. If that was going to be our basic activities, the answer to that basic should be that, isn’t it? Until then, we were only active in Japan so we thought it was good but, from that moment it seems like we had to do something that make more people listen to us. It is safe to say we made that album with that consciousness​.

- So, when you were thinking about making a worldwide compatible album, the result was make it heavier.

T: Yes. I felt like we started to make songs with an emphasis in overseas from this point.

-It seems that’s the most remarkable thing in this album. It was like a reflection of your daily experiences when you were touring together with KORN and DEFTONES at THE FAMILY VALUES TOUR.

T: I agree. Now I can say it daringly but when we went out to play festivals with Withering to death there was a part of me that thought it was too light. In fact, I thought about making it lighter but in the end, it was too light. Naturally, it was not only playing in festivals, we also got the chance to play with several people. At that time everyone said so, but I did not want to become a festival band. Festivals are exciting but I didn’t want to be a band that can’t play their own shows. It might be that I felt that we were going to become a festival band.

- I see.  Recently, more bands are performing overseas and moreover, domestic festivals are increasing, so I think that a lot of bands must be feeling what you felt that time.

T: I agree. It’s not bad to get excited about it and be like “let’s do this together”. However, I think you can’t truly transmit the virtue of a band in a festival. Especially as we go abroad as a “Japanese band”. It would be good not being simply a “Japanese band”. The bands that get utterly excited, once there, are most likely to rot. Of course, it’s better to get excited than not at all. But as expected, while you are looking for it, at that time I thought it would leave scars on Dir en grey’s stuff. I thought that something was wrong. Probably everybody thought the same.

-So, based on the response of foreign people, the demand of heaviness, chaotic and the impact…. after taking all these things into account THE MARROW OF A BONE was done?

T: That’s is.  At that time too, we were starting to drop out the makeup. That was an answer that I thought a lot. It feels like it was a part of following the natural flow of the things. We were doing festivals overseas and at the time of THE FAMILY VALUES TOUR we were about one month and a half playing almost every day. So, make up became something unpleasant. It was problematic. I thought that is how KISS should had felt in the past (laughs) It was simply troublesome, it was like “In Rome, do as romans do” that’s important too right?

- The bands around you were standing close to the stage with nothing but their clothes on their back.

T: Of course, I don’t think that’s the best choice (laughs)At the time we joined these bands, we were doing our makeup and we had to do it by ourselves. It felt tiny.  After all, I thought it was impossible to make a world view without creating your own image. There, I tried not to feel like that. I wanted to compete with the power of 5 people. After all, I think that it was that way because it was overseas.

-On the other hand, if you were able to make a good sound the response would be also good, so you didn’t hesitate to do it like them.

T: Yes, yes. Simply, I thought that I wanted to compete with them. Of course, there were also scary parts but at that point we just wanted to try to play. I think that is what all members were thinking too. Because the band seemed to need it, that’s the direction we were all heading.

- Although THE MARROW OF A BONE might had had the power to leave a deeper mark as a work, on the other hand it may be a bit weak in terms of the identity of DIR EN GREY. This is something that I can’t help feeling right now.

T: That’s right. That’s why the next one UROBOROS was like a reaction to that. In that sense, THE MARROW OF A BONE was just like GAUZE. GAUZE was our debut in Japan and THE MARROW OF A BONE has the imagen of being our debut album in an international level. Then, UROBOROS had the same position than MACABRE. That’s the way of interpreting it.

-In short, THE MARROW OF A BONE was like a collection of singles made for the United States. Just like GAUZE was also made of singles.

T: Yes, exactly.

-So it was like UROBOROS was created with the feeling of “we can do more than just that” that you had after releasing GAUZE.

T: That’s is. Inside me, I made such an interpretation. At the time GAUZE was release, in Japan we thought “let’s go ahead!”, the same thought at the time of THE MARROW OF A BONE.

-UROBOROS is an album with a heavy sense of building. Also, the title has a conceptual meaning. Did you feel that you made something that amazing?

T: In fact, not at all. Once it was released, the response we got was different that all we got before. I guess it was the first time I had that kind of feeling. Somehow, a lot of people started to tell us openly that it was amazing (laughs). I felt like always when we release something so I didn’t understand such reactions.

-Looks like “Why is everybody suddenly praising it?”.

T: Yes, yes (laughs) Until then, I wasn’t really interested if someone said this or that but at that moment there were people that I thought “Wasn’t this person a hater?”* when they approached. Well, they could had save the time and effort of coming (laughs) It was a strange feeling. * He uses “ アンチ “ which can be anti, hater, anti-fan.

-It might be the kind of thing that happens when you make something extraordinary.  From the position of us, the people, it was like “DIR EN GREY has finally dropped a monster album” (laughs) Bands don’t usually get to create a monster when they are trying to. T: Yes.  Baseball players are often asked how they felt when they hit a home run and they answer that they didn’t feel anything. Just hitting the core, naturally and quickly they stretch to hit the ball. It was close to that feeling. We made an album and put it out like before but it seems like we hit the core and the response we got around was like “Why?”.

-However, once this kind of response spreads too much, the next album becomes harder to do right? In short, it’s about  DUM SPIRO SPERO.

T: That’s it.

-In a sense, I think it could like a musical extension of UROBOROS but I think your motivation was totally different.

T: Yes.  When UROBOROS got an unexpected response everywhere we talked about making UROBOROS thoroughly rather than making a totally new album. Therefore…. that’s it. DUM SPIRO SPERO was digging deeper in UROBOROS. That’s the kind of image I thought.

-Once again, you could say that you made UROBOROS without that awareness. It just happened to hit the core, not that you intended to hit it.

T: That’s it. As it if were intentional, UROBOROS was like cultivated artificially.

-You might say that in the history of this band, it was like an unusual sequence….

T: Sure. It was the first time we did this sequence. Also about that time…. The Great East Japan Earthquake disaster happened. When something that not one could predict happens…..it might be a  really selfish interpretation but  that album was for us like a requiem itself. With the previous one UROBOROS we went to a dark world, so we just couldn’t pop up from there again.

-At the time of your debut, “pain” was your theme. It’s like a spirit of keeping this theme but also a need of engaged personally in this aspect.

T: Yes. That’s why a lot of our work is linked with the times. It happened when we were just recording. Then, the nuclear plant power problem came to light, all that during the production of the album. That’s why I have mixed feelings about the memories of that time.

- As a memory, it became an emotional work.

T:  Yes, really gloomy.

-You should have thought about your life more than before. At the same time, it wasn’t just a phase, the theme of “pain” won’t go away forever.