"(and in a lot of ways, Nat isn’t that much better at the flirty stuff, but really don’t get me started, we’ll be here all day) " ooooh, come on, please? *puss in boots eyes*
Heehee, well okay twist my arm.
I’ve talked this with people before so they’ll be sick of hearing it but okay, putting it out there: I’m sure actually really love the fact that they didn’t make Nat this incredible alluring seductress that was just amazing at all of this flirting because in a lot of ways I actually think Bruce has more experience in this department than she does?
We’ve talked a lot about how one of the most important aspects of Brucenat in AOU for Nat is the idea that Bruce is someone that she’s choosing just for herself; he’s not a mission, or a necessity, he’s someone that she wants for herself, because she’s attracted to him and she feels a connection with him. And so a big big theme for Natasha’s AOU arc is choice. The idea that the choice to have children was stripped away from her, and really, if she’d gone on with the KGB/Red Room plans, she wouldn’t have had any meaningful relationships or connections to anyone.
So you have that aspect, that in her past choice was taken away from her, she was made to be a tool and an instrument, and something destructive; so then you have her past and those fears paralleled against her present and her potential future, which is the one she wants with Bruce (and Bruce brings this up as well when he tells her he can’t give her that future because he can’t have children, but that’s straying well off topic) but the point is that Bruce presents her with; he’s something that she wants for herself, he is that potential to have a future that she never thought she could have.
Anyway, the point of the above deviation was that, she’s really not all that experienced in this area at all, she’s never really had that, she’s more than likely had to flirt on missions at one point or another (which Steve briefly mentions) but as Steve also notes, it’s not the same thing, it’s different with Bruce.
And that’s another one of the reasons I love their little movie roleplay (alongside the fact that it’s just adorable and gives us all sorts of lovely headcanons of the two of them sitting watching old movies together) it also gives her a little something that she does a lot; which is playing a part, and playing a role, and by doing that, she’s able to say all of the things that she wants to say to him (that little ‘he’s got a temper, but deep down he’s all fluff...’ speech she makes) that is what she thinks and it is how she feels and she’s trying to tell him that but she’s not quite sure how to say all of it in her own voice and in her own way as Nat, so it gives her a little something to help cushion her uncertainty.
And we sort of see that coming back later at the beginning of the farmhouse scene, she segues a little into that mode again before they start really talking about their pasts and what have you, but she does that at the beginning and it’s just a little implication that she isn’t quite as sure as she might be in this area of flirting and relationships and that sort of thing.
So yes, the bottom line is that she doesn’t really have all that much personal experience in that department and it sort of shows through with the roleplay conversation at the bar; she’s trying to find herself, find Nat and how she flirts and how she approaches romance which isn’t something she’s had a chance to do before and I think it’s nice that she has the opportunity to do so with someone like Bruce who I think is a bit dorky when it comes to flirting and the like, but it works for her, it’s just another thing that works for them both.
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Hulkwidowanon strikes again, fellow! two small questions. 1) what was the key, at what point, you started to ship them? 2) your three favourites scenes/moments (one BruceNat, one Nat, one Bruce).
Hello friend, thank you for asking me! Questions may be small, answers probably won’t be, apologies and warnings up front for that.
1)- To be completely honest with you? The Calcutta scene. My shipper heart just locks on to tiny ships and gets attached within the first 0.5 seconds and yeah, I was gone. In all seriousness I seriously adore that scene with every fibre of my being, it’s just so them while deconstructing them at the same time? There’s that rawness that I think you just get whenever they’re alone on screen together, a real stripping back of the masks that they both use to cover up and hide behind and that scene is just fascinating with Nat in particular and yes, okay, I have meta’d about this before, I will not regurgitate all of that again but I think it just establishes them really really well and there’s an intriguing tension and chemistry there, it’s something I watch and want more of.
The rest of this got huge (as it so often does) so yes, it’s under a cut to spare anyone who doesn’t want to scroll through it all, read on if you care to.
2)- okay this is hard, let me see. I actually think, probably a popular choice, but I think it’s the ‘we could use a little worse’ scene which every man and his dog in this fandom seems to just, erase from their minds and memories?
I just, I love everything about it. I love the fact that she steps up and says it, I love the fact that it’s honest, they’re in the middle of a war with giant space aliens, she doens’t have time to screw about and try and offer empty comfort, she damn well means that, she wants him on their side here and she’s very open about that fact as well (and right, Bruce/Hulk’s arrival totally marks a turning point in that battle)
I love his reaction to it? (which is so beautifully played, thank you Mark) But when has he ever heard before ever that he’s actually wanted that he can be of use, that he can help.
That is such a turning point for their relationship and for Bruce’s character arc in the film as well which from the outset has been about fearing the Hulk and keeping him out of sight ‘he wants me in a cage?’ is one of the first things Bruce says when mentioning Hulk in this film (and he’s right) everyone is scared of Hulk, everyone, and Nat is the first person to step up and tell him she wants him here, she wants him as part of the team, that they can use him, that they need him.
This is his whole arc coming to a head, this is the turning point, this is the change from we just want Bruce, we want to pretend Hulk doesn’t exist, oh and by the way we’ve built a giant glass murder cage for him just in case; to you can help, you can be a hero, you can be an Avenger. This is the ‘now go be a hero’ of Avengers, this is the start of that arc, this is so important for Bruce and for BruceNat because it just, it’s the springboard that pushes them into AOU, she wants him to fight with them, she wants him here, she sees the potential in him, the parallels in them; she sees the desire for redemption, she, of everyone on that team, understands exactly why he’s come back after what happened, exactly what he’s looking for. Because she’s been there, she’s made mistakes, she’s hurt people, she’s wanted to make amends, she’s actively trying here to make amends and she is the first person to reach out and offer him the same chance and opportunity it’s just, there’s so much in that scene and I love it with all my heart (as you can possibly tell from the waffle)
Favourite Nat scene: Okay, I’m cheating her a little bit and lumping two scenes together but I love her little instances of flirting with Bruce (0 brucenat bias here at all clearly) both at the bar and then later on when she slips into it again a little bit at the farmhouse? I love Nat, she’s one of my favourite characters, she’s incredibly capable, she’s highly trained, highly skilled, essential to the team, badass in every department in every way imaginable but she’s also intensely intensely human and I think these little beats really showcase that?
So much of Natasha’s life has revolved around other people and other organisations having complete control over her; the Red Room, the KGB, SHIELD and the juxtaposition of her control being completely stripped away from her, which was really brought to a head and emphasised in the sterilisation that haunts her throughout the film that she explains to Bruce in the farmhouse scene and then paired with this little relationship with Bruce that she’s tentatively pursuing, which is really just for her. It’s her choice, it’s her making that choice for no-one and nothing but herself and because it’s something that she wants and that’s really really important.
And I think that the little flirtations she has with him are really loaded and really important and they just have so much to tell you about her character. And also I think, (to give some meaning to the above background waffle) it’s entirely her, there’s no agency overlords telling her that she has to be with Bruce, that she has to seduce him or pursue him or whatever, she’s just doing it for her, there’s no underlying motivation there, so she’s not following any orders, she’s not being told what to do or why she’s doing it for herself and I think you really sort of see some of her vulnerabilities and insecurities coming out in those scenes she has?
They’re so so well played as well, but, I love it because it’s just her but it’s so true to just her, because it’s not really her at all? Okay, this is getting messy, but it’s like, she doesn’t really know who she, Natasha, is? She doesn’t really know how she flirts or does any of these things just for her, she’s always told what to do, what to be, who to be, she’s given a cover and a story and she lives in that and then she sheds it but in her own skin and left to her own devices she’s not really all that sure who to be or how to behave? So she kind of, invents a cover of her own, and this little roleplay they’ve developed is perfect for her because she can say her own things with someone else’s voice and it’s, she can chisel out some sort of ‘comfort zone’ for her, some character that she’s cobbled together from, I assume, watching old movies with Bruce (which is an adorable headcanon in itself) and she can use that the way she usually uses her covers to say what she wants to say and explain to him what it is she likes about him and what she wants to do with this relationship.
There’s just, I think there’s a real sort of, odd as this may sound, an innocence to her in those scenes? She probably doesn’t have a huge amount, if any, personal experience in this department at all and it’s allowed to breathe and shine through which I love. It would have been so so easy to just turn her into a wily, manipulative seductress and then things would have been forced and awkward and weird. but she’s allowed to be sort of flawed and insecure and vulnerable in a lot of ways in this department and it makes for some really lovely scenes and really lovely insights into her character and I love it a lot? Right okay let’s pretend some of this made sense and move on.
Okay, okay, favourite Bruce moment is, hmm, I have a lot of these you know, this is tricky, I love my ridiculous, dark twisty science squish and I love lots of little pieces that sort of build together to create him. I love the little ‘she’s creating tissue!!!’ because science Natasha, look at the science look! I love the post-helicarrier hulk out crash landing onto that abandoned building and the fact that the first word’s out of the ridiculous man’s mouth is ‘did I hurt anybody’ BRUCE YOU JUST LITERALLY FELL FROM THE SKY TAKE A MOMENT MAN, TAKE A MOMENT, I love the darker little beats of him and that line that breaks my heart every time ‘in case you needed to kill me but you can’t, I know, I tried’ which I think is a huge huge huge part of Bruce’s past (and something that needs to be discussed more dammit) I love his strength to move past that and what he is and try and do what’s right and what’s best, and just, I love all of Bruce Banner okay this is difficult.
but yes, right, trying to actually come to some kind of answer, I think I really love the sort of, and it’s not so much a moment as a sort of, character trait I suppose, but I love how he just gets people? I know that a lot of the time fandom, and I suppose to an extent MCU canon presents Bruce as really quite socially awkward and not really great in that department and in a lot of ways he’s not but at the same he really does understand people and the way they work really quite well? And I love that.
That little beat in the first Avengers when he starts analysing Loki’s ‘warm light for all mankind’ line, what it means, what it’s designed to do and then on to SHIELD/Fury in general and questioning what’s going on and happening and it’s a fairly small little scene but I think it’s really interesting that Bruce is considering these things, and the things that he points out are interesting and largely on point. And that’s not the only time he does it either; the first scene with Nat in Calcutta, he calls her out on a lie, makes her play her hand, and he’s right about Fury and the fact that he does have a cage that he intends to shove Bruce in if things get out of hand. He also predicts, rightly, in AOU that Ultron’s desire here is ‘evolution’ and deduces from that that he’s gone to Helen Cho.
Bruce I think is one of those people who doesn’t really speak unless he has something to say; and when he does it’s something to pay attention to. I think he really does understand people, he watches, he weighs, he analyses, he picks apart, he solves people the same way he would a science puzzle, he figures out how they tick, why they do the things that they do, what drives them, what undoes them, the way they think. And he’s not often very vocal about this but when he is he’s right. It’s just, I don’t know, it’s just something that I really love about his character and his habit of watching and analysing and understanding people just sort of branching out into the larger want to watch and analyse and understand everything. Bruce I don’t think was ever really in to science to make things, only ever to pick apart what was already there to see how it works, I just, love that a lot. I am going to stop now I have finally run out of things to say I promise. This got stupidly long I’m so sorry.
hello, fellow shipper! i'm sending this ask to the hulkwidow blogs i adore most because i'm really curious and i want our tags full of optimist and pretty things! so... like your top 10 of things you like most about brucenat ship/relation/connection? :)
oh my gosh hi! this is so lovely, and what a great idea, okay let’s see.
1)- Their development? I mean, the arc they’ve had from Avengers through to Age of Ultron has just been incredible and it’s nowhere near done yet.
2)- the duality of their relationship and the many ways that it works; the same level of caring and depth and understanding and empathy that we see between Bruce and Nat extends between Hulk and Widow; there’s no erasing of their pasts or situations, they just know and accept every part of the other.
3)- the acceptance they share. There’s no erasing of their pasts, the things they’ve done, there’s no empty pity, no false comfort or dulling of what they’ve been through. They know almost everything the other has done and been put through and they don’t shy or run away from it, they face it all, together.
4)- their potential - there’s so much there for them. AOU was just a foundation on which later films can build, their story isn’t done, not by a long shot, there’s so much more to come and there’s so much more good to come for them. I think that this is a ship that I could very genuinely see as being endgame if you will and it’s something that I want to be endgame as well, because I genuinely think that these characters can just continue to grow together and remain happy together and it’s something that I just want to see develop further and watch where they go from here.
5)- the parallels between them - there are just, so many parallels in their storylines? they’re such different people and they have had really quite different experiences but there’s so much potential for empathy and understanding there that it’s hard to find from anyone else. They’ve both been made into monsters; facets of themselves that have been shaped for destruction and nothing more and how they both struggle to get past that and to be something more than that and more than the things that they’ve done. Their want to be trusted, their want to help, that they both believe that they need, and attempt to find, their own redemption (which is a big theme for them both in Avengers and AOU) The amount of humanity and empathy that they have that they extend to each other and the amount of understanding that exists between them.
6)- the balance in their relationship - I think, there have been a few people who’ve described their relationship as sort of ‘beauty and the beast’; which I can understand, but I’m always a little bit wary of that trope just being thrown around because a lot of the time there can feel like there’s a certain imbalance there; that the ‘beauty’ of the relationship often has to sacrifice a lot for the ‘beast’ and doesn’t get a lot in return but I think that the opposite of that is true for Bruce and Natasha and that’s one of the big draws for me? There is that sort of beast aspect that they both have; along with the softer beauty side, these two halves of the whole person; Bruce and Hulk and Widow and Nat and the way that they interact with each other and it’s just so much more complex than beauty and the beast in the usual sense and it’s so much more intricate and fascinating for that, but its’ also much more mutually beneficial? One character isn’t sacrificed and hung out to draw and spread painfully thin for the benefit of the other with 0 reward for those efforts, they fit well together, they support and protect and care for and benefit each other, it’s not a one-sided relationship, they’re both very much as important and significant to and benefited by their relationship.
7)- the things they see in each other that they can’t see in themselves, the faith that they have, the way that they complete each other’s journeys - I think this comes out most clearly at the end of AOU, the little ‘you’ve done plenty’ on Bruce’s part and her ‘now go be a hero’. The thing Natasha struggles with most is her pursuit of redemption, the red in her ledger that’s the only thing she can see and her desire to wipe it out, the fear that she can never be anything other than what she was made; and Bruce can see past all of the guilt she carries over the wrong she’s done to the good that she’s done and can truly tell her that he believes that she’s done enough, that she’s worthy of the title of Avenger, of hero. And for Nat, she encourages him to be just that, she thinks that he is capable of that, she sees that potential and that value in him that he just can’t see for himself, she has so much faith in him, in the person that he is and what he can do here and now that he struggles with so much.
8)- their rawness and their honesty- Both of these characters I think are very practiced liars in one way or the other. Natasha is a spy, cover identities and lies are sort of her bread and butter; we’ve already seen this at play in the MCU as the different character she plays to get close to Tony in Iron Man 2, there’s always a mask there with her, a barrier between her and whoever she’s with, but as Steve actually points out in AOU, that isn’t there when she’s alone with Bruce. And he’s the same, there are a lot of layers to Bruce and they’re definitely not all on show at once, he hides a lot of who he is and can be really quite repressed in a lot of ways. but a lot of the scenes between Nat and Bruce when they’re alone together as some of the most open and the rawest scenes with the most emotional honesty we get from either of them are when they’re alone together. I’m thinking a lot about the farmhouse scene in AOU, they’re both very forthcoming there, about their pasts, their insecurities, vulnerabilities, flaws, their worries about the future, there’s a lot contained in that scene and it all just comes out with no barriers and no concealing this part or that part, it’s just all there, all the cards on the table for them and it’s just a really interesting and important aspect to them.
9)- just their whole dynamic - just, the way they interact with each other, the chemistry that they have, the draw that their scenes together have, the subtlety of their relationship, the read-between-the-lines nature of everything, that there’s always more to get from them and their interactions if you so choose, the lullaby and the Hulk/Widow relationship, the trust that’s developed between them, the intimacy, they comfort, the fact that they’ve found something of a home in one another, a safe place, someone they feel comfortable with, someone they can trust, who can understand them and empathise with them to the greatest degree, really just everything about them, to summarise a bit you know.
10)- the fandom! I’ve met some really lovely people from this little ship, everyone is crazy nice and crazy talented as well and I’m very grateful to be a small part of this bunch.
oh oh oh lauren ! ok i saw the hands more as - bruce - to bruce his hands kinda betrayed him. It's something he couldn't help doing, he had to touch her back and kind of affirm his love for her even though he knew he should be distancing himself, he bought himself some time by lingering, and holding on. He breaks that spell when he looks at their hands and nat stops talking.
no no no no you’re ruining me here I love this interpretation so much. I do love the fact that the first time he reaches up to touch her back and sort of respond to this intimate little gesture she’s initiated between them it’s just so unconscious and so instinctive? Like he never breaks eye contact with her while he reaches for her, he just does it because he has to, because it feels right?