The sequel to ‘her flutz is never called!’ - is his lutz ever called? There’s a couple of guys it gets said about, too. I’ve also seen it said that men in general tend to have bad flip edges called but not bad lutz edges, though this small graph doesn’t address that question.
I checked the 2+Lz calls for a handful of men with lutz edge issues. The skaters here are:
Nam Nguyen
Kazuki Tomono
Daisuke Takahashi
Jason Brown
Shoma Uno
Junehyoung Lee
Grant Hochstein
Ivan Shmuratko
The number after the skater’s initials are how many of his jumps are included. Like before, I only included jumps from international, non-WTT, non-JO competitions, and for Daisuke, I took out all jumps before the 2007-2008 season (no marked edge calls before then). Unclear edge calls also did not exist between the 2010-2011 and 2014-2015 seasons - if you read my other post, I misspoke about this; I’ve edited it.
Again, I wouldn’t conclude much on the basis of eight skaters... but that’s a lot of uncalled edges, and of the skaters I looked at, only one received many e calls. I will note that when squinting at videos of these skaters to check that they consistently had flat/inside edges, the edges more often seemed to be flat rather than noticeably inside - but that should still be called.
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This graph brought to you by reading the words “her flutz is never called!” for the nth time.
People still say it all the time about Zhenya, and now the other Eteri kids with edge issues. I’ve seen it said about Kaetlyn Osmond on occasion. And recently, perhaps because of her success, I’ve seen people complaining that Kaori’s flutz gets ignored.
But the thing is: at least for Zhenya, that actually wasn’t true. So is it also untrue for Kaori? Who is it true for?
Out of curiosity, I checked the calls for every 2+Lz for a handful of skaters with lutz edge issues. The skaters, in the order on the graph, are:
Mirai Nagasu
Evgenia Medvedeva
Kaori Sakamoto
Kaetlyn Osmond
Anna Shcherbakova
Serafima Sakhanovich
Ashley Wagner
Rika Hongo
Mao Asada
I only included jumps from international, senior-level competitions, excluding JO and WTT. The number after the skater’s initials is how many jumps were included. Please also note that prior to the 2014-2015 season, the unclear edge call did not exist (EDIT: actually, it did, but only for 2008-2009 and 2009-2010), which skews things for the older skaters. For Mao, I also removed all jumps prior to 2007-2008, as marked edge calls did not exist before then.
As you can see, only one of these skaters has her lutz ‘never called’, but of them, only Mao and Ashley had theirs very consistently called.
I would caution against drawing many conclusions from this graph alone, since these are only 9 skaters whose careers only somewhat overlapped and who competed under different rules about edge calls. Skaters also can and do work on their edge issues, or have better or worse jump edges at different competitions. That being said, it’s widely known that edge calls just do not happen consistently.
Rhythmic gymnastics and figure skating are compared a lot - I’ve even seen them called ‘the skating of the summer Olympics’ and ‘the rhythmic gymnastics of the winter Olympics’ - and seem to have a fair amount of overlap in fanbases. Both of them involve performing multiple routines to music in sparkly costumes, being evaluated for difficulty and execution, and accusations that the judging is incredibly biased towards Russians. Recently, the new RG code of points came out, and something that was interesting to me as a FS fan is that it added a new artistry component to the scores that works quite differently to figure skating PCS.
The new artistry score is one of the changes meant to address a big complaint with last quad’s code from both fans and gymnasts: that the emphasis on difficulty sucked all the artistry out of it and resulted in routines that were nothing but tricks. Because ‘artistry’ scoring is so difficult to define for a judged sport, and certainly something that has caused controversy in figure skating, I thought it was interesting to look at how RG attempts to tackle it and think about how a similar system could possibly be applied to figure skating.
(Quick disclaimer: not a judge or rhythmic gymnastics expert etc, this is for fun)
So, how does 'artistry' work in this new code? There are slightly different rules for singles and groups; we’ll focus on singles because that’s closer to skating (we’ll set aside synchro here). Here’s a video by a judge going over the basics with a few examples, and the Code of Points itself, but to summarize the parts that are most relevant to skating:
There is a separate panel of 'artistry' judges who are supposed to be unconcerned with the difficulty of a routine (four of them, same as the panel size for difficulty judges and execution judges)
Artistry starts at 10 points and deductions are taken as necessary
"The music inspires the choreography by establishing the pace, theme of movements and structure of the composition; it is not a background for body and apparatus elements."
One of the guidelines for music selection: "The character of the music should be chosen in respect to the age, technical level, and artistic qualities of the gymnast, as well as ethical norms". RG has also had at least one sparkly Holocaust-themed routine, so hopefully things like that are covered by ‘ethical norms’.
"Variety in the movements: gymnasts travel from one movement to another facing different directions for distinctive reasons; the modalities of her traveling are varied depending on the distance needed to travel, the speed and style of the specific music, etc. This variety in the directions and modalities of traveling avoids monotonous movement."
The aspects of artistry defined for use in scoring:
Character: The routine should have a clearly defined style recognizable throughout the entire exercise, not just the dance steps (an element in RG with its own requirements), and changes in the music should be reflected in the gymnast's movements. Lose 0.30 points if present in majority of exercise, 0.50 if present in some of it, and 1.0 if totally absent.
Body expression: Use of whole body to convey the character and interpretation of the music, including varied intensity of movements, full use of range and extension, and emotionally responsive facial expressions. Lose 0.3 points if it's under-developed (fixed facial expression, less than full use of range) and 0.5 if not developed.
Dynamic changes: The speed and intensity of the gymnast should reflect changes in the dynamics of the music. Contrasts in speed and intensity are used to reflect the music or create an effect (e.g. dramatic pauses). At least two dynamic changes required per routine. Lose 0.30 points for only one and 0.50 for none.
Body and apparatus effects: Movements that create a unique routine and interpretation and emphasize specific moments in the music. At least one required; lose 0.30 points if not present. Variety of movement is also required; lose 0.3 for repeating the same throws/catches more than three times.
Use of space: Using the whole floor area and traveling it in different ways. Lose 0.30 points if insufficient.
Unity: Continuity of elements and expression throughout the exercise. Lose 0.30 points if broken due to technical problems. (A seminar I skimmed mentioned you can also lose this if the exercise is just not unified, but the rule only mention technical problems when it comes to losing points.)
Connections: The gymnast moves logically and smoothly from one element to the next instead of doing random movements. Lose 0.1 points per bad connection up to a maximum of 2.0.
Rhythm: The gymnast moves in harmony with the musical phrases and rhythm and hits musical accents on time, without ignoring them. Lose 0.1 for every time the gymnast is early/late to accents or ignores them, the gymnast is off-rhythm or off the music, etc up to a maximum of 2.0.
There is also a section dealing with dance steps and its related penalties, which I have left out, as well as a few misc. penalties for things like music violations.
So, a gymnast with no character, completely undeveloped expression, music overtime, etc would have... 0.7 artistry points. (Why not zero? IDK, I calculated it several times; maybe there's something I missed, or maybe the gymnasts get a little freebie.)
This is quite different from how PCS works in skating, and it’s an interesting way to try to define ‘artistry’! Because it’s so new, it’s hard to tell how well it succeeds at this, but what I like is that most of it tries to be specific, and it points out a lot of things that I notice when I’m watching a program. Does the skater ignore changes in the music or react to them by changing their speed or style? Do they hit obvious musical accents? Does it feel like they did three random movements for a choreo sequence or because they needed some transitions, or do they feel purposeful? Are they half-heartedly doing their choreo or moving with purpose? Is this one program with music and choreo cuts that flow together and make sense, or two (or more...) programs stapled together? Do they remember that they have a face outside of the step sequence?
The current PCS system doesn’t feel like it’s working the way it’s intended to. Part of it is not inherent to the system as defined (e.g. the problem where judges are asked to explain why they are not in line with other judges leading to ‘follow the pack’, judges essentially picking one score for all categories and moving them up and down by fractions of a point, consistency rises, corruption, etc). Part of it is that artistry is always going to be somewhat inherently controversial; one person’s artistry itself fave is the next person’s boring snoozefest.
And actually, if you look at the official chart for PCS, it picks out some of those things outlined above, too. But overall, it’s not as specific, and it's unclear to me why some aspects are in the categories they are. Why is 'individuality/personality' a Performance component rather than Interpretation? Why is 'variety and contrast of movements and energy' part of Performance instead of Composition? Isn't 'ice coverage' also part of Skating Skills? How do you weigh all of these aspects to come up with a fair number? I’m sure judges get training on this, but as a fan, it’s not always entirely clear how the PCS categories are supposed to be judged.
Anyway, as a thought exercise, what might it look like if we tried to adapt this RG system to figure skating?
Separate artistry panel - a lot of people would argue that PCS should have a separate panel anyway. One criticism of that idea is that it’s unfair to smaller competitions, especially in areas where FS is not as developed and it’s difficult to get enough judges, so scaling might need to be suggested. Perhaps if you only have three normal judges, you only need one artistry judge, while the largest competitions have equal panels? Similarly, the score has to work for both baby skaters and the most advanced athletes.
Start at 10 points and take deductions accordingly, then scale it into a similar range as the current PCS relative to TES. If all deductions were taken, the score should be zero.
In an ideal world, to maximize transparency, not only would all deductions be listed, but the score sheet would have time stamps of when requirements were checked off/deductions were taken where applicable. It wouldn’t be that difficult to program - hit buttons when stuff happens and edit/get agreement among panel by scrubbing through official video - but one would have to make sure it isn’t too tedious for judges.
Deductions:
I would keep the character, body and facial expressions, and rhythm penalties as they are, except for adding another level of deductions to body and facial expressions and increasing the maximum penalty to 0.7.
A more specific definition of ‘insufficient use of the rink’ would be ideal, but I am struggling to think of one that would be easy to measure and would be fair to skaters of different levels (obviously, a 6-year-old is never going to have the coverage of Kostner). So maybe leave that up to discretion and keep the same penalty.
Dynamic changes: This one is interesting. On the one hand, skating programs are longer than RG routines; on the other, I wouldn’t want to constrain music choice too much or encourage janky music edits when we already have enough of those. Maybe keep it at two and keep the same penalty?
Body effects: Again, programs are longer; I might even increase it to three, only two of which can involve the same kind of element (jumps, spins, choreographic movements, etc) for the artistry score. Increase to 1 point with multiple deduction categories for missing one, two, or three.
Variety: Variety of jumps/spins is already covered by other rules, so this would only apply to choreographic/transitional movements. I would be harsh and say you get two of the same movement per program before you get a penalty; no endless leg kicks or spread eagles. (In a real code, one would probably want to decide what common movements are ‘similar enough’. Are spread eagles and besti squats too similar? Can you do three spirals if they’re in different enough positions or directions? If you do two normal illusion turns and one catchfoot illusion turn, have you gone over the limit?) Same penalty.
Unity: I would change this to lack of unity and continuity not caused by falls or missed spins/etc, since those are already penalized. Increase to 0.5 point maximum penalty but add a smaller deduction category to compensate.
Connections: This is the one I am the most unsure about, because I don’t think I understand it as well😅I could only find a couple of examples of bad connections in RG, and it’s harder for me to translate this to FS. Reduce to 1 point.
Skating skills: Arguably more of a technical skill, but it has to go somewhere. Maybe deductions in increments of 0.5 up to 3 points.
This adds up to 10! Obviously a real version of this would need to go through testing, debates about where the emphases should go, etc, and I could see there being slightly different codes for the different disciplines/short and long programs/age levels, but this was fun to consider :) Do you think an artistry score resembling the new RG one could work for FS? Would you adapt it a different way?
@sywtwfs - start here, as So You Want To Watch Figure Skating has lots of useful basic info, plus competition times + how to watch them, as well as breakdowns of rule updates
the-real-xmonster’s tech posts on jumps, spins, and steps (+spirals)
illyria-and-her-pet’s detailed guide to steps and step sequence breakdowns
Skate Guard Blog is a cornucopia of figure skating history posts
ISU handbooks - sometimes you just gotta go to the source
ice-dance.com has dance pattern information and charts, as well as a listing of compulsory/short/rhythm dances for each season back to 1968 ( shared by beautifulstorms - thanks!)
And you know, there is always Wikipedia; usual caveats about it aside, it has articles on everything from the 6.0 system to fours skating to costumes to particular elements
Search Results and Technical Elements
Figure Skating Elements Search - search elements by skater/year/competition from 2003 to 2023. The site is Japanese, but the search form is in English, so it should be easy to figure out
Skater-Stats - search competition results by skater or competition
RinkResults - search competition results by skater/competition/competition series/country represented, as well as highest-scoring elements; also attempts to provide a video for every program on the same page as the score sheet (shared by aitlu, thanks!)
Search Costumes and Creative Commons Photos
@figureskatingcostumes - Costumes tagged by skater, discipline, year, country, and sometimes other attributes like details or color.
Wikimedia Commons - sorted by skater/year/costume color (here) /element (here)/etc. There are a couple of photographers who upload regularly
Phantom Kabocha’s Photos - sorted by skater/competition, 2012-present. Many beautiful photos, and they are all CC-by!
Search Music
If you are looking for a specific song, I would recommend using Wikipedia’s advanced search and doing a search in the ‘Figure skaters’ category
Figure skating wiki - has most music used by the most popular skaters, typically more recent ones
Frogs on Ice - music for well known skaters, 1992~1996
Tadaaki Masuda’s list - music by season and sometimes by discipline, 1979~1997
Maeno’s Skating Music Page - sorted by season/discipline/music source, 1997~2006, covers quite a few skaters
Skate Music List - you can’t search any more now that it’s only on the Internet Archive, but the drop-downs by season/name/music source still get you to pages. 1976~2006 or so.
Selected Video Sources
ISU - some technical videos and full replays of recent competitions, and as of this season, individual videos of skaters/pairs. You may need a VPN to access some replays depending on your country
HD full Olympic replays
Olympic Channel - popular Olympic programs (many under ‘Music Monday’) and some misc. things like fluff and Olympic compilations
Olympic Channel Figure Skating - same type of content as above, except without all the other sports mixed in on the channel
Mintaka Alnilam - HD videos from the 90s and early 2000s 🤩 Midori Ito (and many others!) in 1080p!
Mintaka Alnilam Annex - other great historical videos that are less HD than on their main channel
3axel1996 - 1977 to 1998, early 2000s
floskate - mostly 1960s to 1990s, but also some earlier footage
Skate Guard Blog - the blog’s Youtube channel; mostly 90s but also things like recent Stars on Ice programs
Hyacinth B. - mostly full US TV replays, mostly 90s and early 2000s
GoldenAgeofFS - late 60s to early 2000s
sabinfire - 2014 to 2017, good quality videos and some full replays
On-Ice Perspectives - videos filmed on ice with the skaters
The Skating Session - recent videos are mostly competition discussion, but I am recommending their archival videos from the 1980s~2000s, including some US nationals videos with alternate angles/no commentary
germann1968 - has uploaded an old ISU training video series on what the different components are supposed to mean, including examples (there is a more modern one on the ISU channel as well)
Look, I know it's no use arguing with Sambo stans. So this isn't an argument.
Every time yet another Sambo kid ends up with a teenage retirement, I can't help but think – yes, back injuries are common in this sport. Hell, my coach has back problems occasionally, and he never finished out his triples before he went into dance. But how many coaches can you think of that have had three or four students with such bad backs that they can't jump anymore before they're twenty? I sure can't think of one. The Sambo students are under much more of a microscope than anyone else, so maybe we just hear more about their injuries, but surely if this was happening all over the place, I'd remember it? Injuries happen, but are fractures that common?
Here's the data I could find comparing the career lengths and injuries in Sambo skaters vs those taught by several other coaching teams.
(Fractures are often brought up with the Sambo girls because they are a sign of RED-S, formerly known as female athlete triad, which can also impact males. Essentially, starvation and/or overtraining affects the progression of puberty and hormone production, and because we need sex hormones to build bone mass, the athlete ends up with weakened bones that are more susceptible to stress fractures. This is a condition that can affect an athlete for the rest of their life.)
To make the fairest comparison, I tried to find coaches that often pick up younger skaters, rather than mostly 'finishing' off older ones, and who have at least some experience with students placing well in the senior ranks. This turned out to be tricky – many skaters switch coaches a LOT in their careers, many coaches don't have a Wikipedia page that makes it easy to find their students, and if they do, many coaches only have one or two star students that someone has bothered to list there, etc.
But I found four-ish workable comparisons and tried my best to find info. I also mostly list longer-term students, not people who moved on after a year or two or who haven't been with that coach for long. In addition, I skipped students from far enough back, because in the pre-internet age, we definitely wouldn't be hearing about every injury, especially outside of the top stars. (For the sake of fairness, I will also note that the more famous skaters will still have their health reported on much more than less famous ones, and there may be cultural differences in reporting and injury disclosure.)
Hamada – note: Hamada is accused of physically and emotionally abusing her students
Hosoda – (no record of injury that I could find), 26
Kawabe – bone bruise in 2018 at 13
Shiraiwa – fractured shinbone in 2016 at 14, injured other leg in 2019 at ~17
Honda (Taichi) – (no record of injury that I could find), retired at 22 to begin a career
Miyahara – eating disorder*, stress fracture in her pelvis in 2017 at 16, foot injury in 2017 at 17
Kihara – (no record of injury that I could find) Retired at 21 and began choreographing
Honda (Marin) – (no record of injury that I could find while she was with Hamada)
Muramoto (Kana) – (no record of injury that I could find while she was with Hamada)
Muramoto (Satsuki) – unspecified injury in 2010 at ~20, retired at 22 to become a coach
Oota – ankle injury that become bone inflammation in 2004 at 17, missed 2005-2006 because of it as well, more injury problems in 2008 at ~20, retired at 22.
Kihira – broken finger in 2016 at ~14, ankle injury in 2019 at ~17 that still hadn’t fully healed as of late 2021 and contributed to her missing the season
Yoshida – hip injury at 13 in 2018
*There was an interview where Hamada said that she just had trouble putting on weight because of who knows maybe her work ethic, but I've read Satton’s book, and she clearly describes an eating disorder.
(Zhou is also a student of hers, but I am unclear about how much time he actually spends with her as opposed to the other coaches he has listed, given that they live in different countries.)
Mishin
Tuktamysheva – knee injury at 16 in 2012, back injury at 17 in 2013, torn ankle ligament at 18 in 2014, ankle injury at 20 in 2016
Guliakova – unspecified injury in 2020 at ~17
Samodurova – (no record of injury that I could find), 19
Petrov – ligament injury in his leg in 2015 at 16, leg injury in 2016 at 17.
Dmitriev – back problems in 2010 at ~17, injury in 2014 at 22
Stavitskaia – (no record of injury that I could find), last competed in singles at 17 before doing ice dance for a few seasons
Gachinski – developed a back injury(?) in 2011 at 17 that made his feet go numb D: and seems to have never fully recovered, last competed at 21
Lazukin – back injury in 2015 at ~17, knee injury in 2020 at 23
Lutai – broken foot in 2005 at ~19 that apparently never fully healed, last competed at 23 (though he also had legal troubles at that time)
Basova – (no record of injury that I could find), last competed at 22
Doronina – (no record of injury that I could find), last competed at 19
Novoseltsev – (no record of injury that I could find), last competed at 24
Lutfullin – injury in 2020 at 16
Plushenko – groin injury in 2005 at ~23, knee injuries at some point before 2006, knee injury in 2010 at ~27, knee bothering him again in 2012 at 29, back problem in 2012 at 29 that continued to bother him, knee problem again in 2013 at ~30, last competed at 31
Semenenko – stress fracture in leg in 2017 at 14, hip problems and other injuries in 2018 at ~15, injured rib in 2021 at 18
Yamada & Higuchi
Uno – sprained ankle in 2018 at 21
Matsuike – injury in 2019 at ~15, ankle injury in 2021 at 17
Yamashita – foot injury from boot issues in 2019 at 17
Murakami – sprained ankle in 2015 at 20, last competed at 23
Koiwai – Wikipedia claims she had 'chronic foot injuries' by 19 in 1994, but I can't find any source for that statement and that's not mentioned in her Japanese page, last competed at 22
Onda – ankle injury in 2003 at 20, last competed at 25
Yamazaki – (no record of injury that I could find), last competed at... 18? I can't even find her birth year, she is not well known
Nitaya – fractured leg at 22 in 2019, injured tailbone at 23 in 2020
Ito – broken ankle in 1982 at 13, broken ankle in 1985/6 at 16, chronic knee pain by 1991/age 21, mostly finished her amateur career by 21 to move on to the pro scene, with a brief comeback at 26
Grütter
Ovcharova – (no record of injury that I could find while she was with Grütter), retired at 19
Bacchini – unspecified injuries in 2012 at 27, retired at 29
Alvarez – (no record of injury that I could find), last competed at 21
Contesti – (no record of injury that I could find while he was with Grütter), retired at 29 due to funding issues/supporting his family
Silberer – hip injury in 2009, appears to have stopped competing afterward at 18.
Lambiel – knee issue in 2002 at 17, again in 2004 at 19, again in 2006 at 21, retired at 24.
Sambo
Pitkeev – back injury at 17 in 2015 that he was made to compete on through painkillers and made worse, can no longer jump due to pain (Eteri made fun of him for not just training through it), tried to switch to ice dance but was unable to continue, last competed at 17
Medvedeva – fractured arm in 2011 at 12, fractured elbow(?) in 2015 at 15, fractured foot at 17 in 2017, back injury at 17/18 in 2017 or early 2018 that turned out to be three fractured vertebrae - she competed on all of these - eating disorder, severe osteoporosis, last competed at 20, retired due to a fusing spine that makes her unable to do most jumps or even sit without pain
Tsurskaya – ankle injury in 2016 at 14, knee injury in 2016 at 15, diagnosed at 15 with Osteochondritis dissecans (a disease thought to often be caused by trauma in juveniles) and a herniated disk, stated her back issues caused permanent damage, last competed at 17, retired due to lack of interest in competing
Tursynbaeva – back injury at 19 in 2019, last competed at 19, retired due to back injury
Kanysheva – retired from singles due to injury of some kind (I've seen back/hip injury, but I can't seem to find an official source that definitively states what it is) at 14 because she could no longer jump, retired from her try at ice dance at 16
Erokhov – injury in 2016 at 17, back injury in 2018 at 19; it seems like he either had more injuries or the existing ones continued to hamper him, because since 2018, he has competed only five times in four seasons
Panenkova – fractured foot in 2017 at 14, last competed at 17
Skirda – last full season was at 14 in 2016, competed exactly once after that, seems to have attempted a change to ice dance?
Lipnitskaya – twisted ankle at 14 in 2012, last competed at 18, retired due to ligament and joint problems and eating disorder (which Eteri bragged about when she was still with her)
Shelepen – chronic ankle injury by 18 in 2012*, last competed at 18, retired due to ankle issues
Samsonov – Osgood-Schlatter at 14 in 2019/2020, last mostly full season was in 2019, has only competed once since then
Rukhin – injuries in 2019 at 14
Zagitova – broken arm in 2016? at 12 or 13 (which she says went to a competition with, where she broke her leg as well), Osgood-Schlatter by 15? in 2017?, probably disordered eating (remember, kids, avoiding puberty is easy, "you just need to shut your mouth and not eat" and also not drinking water is fine), last competed at 17
Valieva – injury at 12 in 2019, foot or leg injury at 13 in 2019
Usacheva – some kind of injury in 2021 at 15, torn ligament/hip fracture in 2021 at 15
Trusova – fractured foot in 2021 at 17
Shcherbakova – fractured leg in 2017 at 13, fractured toe in 2021 at 17, neck injury in 2021 at 17, ankle injury in 2022 at 17, chronic pain even when sitting
Kvitelashvili – (no record of injury that I could find), 26
Kostornaia – fracture in her leg at 15 in 2018, broken finger at 16 in 2018, back problems by 17 in 2020?, broken wrist/hand at 18 in 2021, broke other arm at 18 in 2022
Khromykh – injury of some kind at 13 in 2019?
*technically, this was first reported a few months after she switched coaches, but it was described as 'chronic', which implies it had already been having issues for some time, so I threw it in
Also, Tarakanova was only with them for one season, but she did mention that during that season, she competed at the RCF in a knee brace and so much pain she could barely walk. She wanted to withdraw, but the coaches told her to 'show character' and do it anyway :(
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This anon just wants to thank you for the competitions rec post. I watched the 1988 Battle of The Brians short program, and it has to be the most exciting and engaging competition so far, 100% more interesting than anything nowadays. Can't wait to watch the LP! Also ashamed to admit it, but thanks to you, I now have a massive crush on young Brian Orser.
Glad to hear you're enjoying it :) I hope you find the long just as exciting!
And hey, no shame - not my type, but he was pretty cute.
What are your thoughts on programs set to music by Igor Stravinsky and do you have any favorites among them? Also do you think his music is way to difficult to interpret in figure skating?
Hi! I'm actually not all that knowledgeable about music (most of what I know I learned from making fan videos and my beginner ice dance lessons), so I am probably not the best person to ask about this, but I'll try :)
As far as I know, of what he wrote, skaters pretty much only ever use Firebird - Tomoki did a program to Petrushka (Klimkin did too, but it was technically a composition by someone else, on whom I can find literally nothing, so I'm not sure what its exact relation to Stravinsky's Petrushka is - it sounds pretty similar to me?) and apparently Nathan used a bit of The Rite of Spring at one point.
The Rite of Spring is one that I can't really imagine ever being done well in skating. The music is weird and dissonant, sometimes literally painful to listen to, and the ballet is full of strange movements and a hypnotizing intensity. I mean, the original performance may not have literally caused a riot, but it still really upset people. You would need a choreographer and skater(s) willing to be just as transgressive when translating it to the ice to have a hope of making it work, and I honestly cannot see that happening for a competition program. Maybe for an exhibition, for a skater or team with good enough interpretive abilities and creativity.
Tomoki’s Petrushka isn’t brilliant either in terms of interpretation or choreography (or music cuts), though it did have some nice moments. I think portraying a puppet was also an interesting choice for him, considering that he is so flexible and tends to have trouble controlling that. Some of the simpler parts of the ballet sound quite skateable to me, though portraying a puppet effectively throughout a program would take some skill. Listening to the music makes me think Satton could pull it off.
The part of Firebird that always gets picked for programs is pretty difficult and demanding skating material, to be sure - it’s complex, unusual, kind of disturbing, and not visually forgiving to skating through it or half-assed arm waves - but I think there have been a few good programs to it:
Watson & Oppegard. If you can deal with ‘80s music cuts, most of their skating matches the mood of the music, the exit on the first death spiral is interesting, and they have good lift positions.
Yukari Nakano (video has a buzz, sorry; it was the best I could find :( ) She puts the ‘fire’ in ‘Firebird’, and the timing on her spins is great, especially the first one - it’s not often a spin gets to be one of the most exciting elements! (On a more shallow note, I absolutely love her costume.)
Tatsuki Machida (my favorite of these). He feels like he truly gets the music. The choreo is complex enough to keep up with the more complicated parts, and he performs it with the commitment it needs.
Thank you for your lovely post on Debi Thomas! It was so wonderful to see her get some recognition. It’s a shame she’s not more well known, or appreciated, in the skating world today! Sometimes it feels as if she’s been forgotten. Thank you again-the gif set was beautiful!
Glad you enjoyed it, anon, and thank you :)
I agree, and I am a little surprised she isn't more recognized, especially given how often the increasingly wrong story of Bonaly has gone viral - but I guess she doesn't have as much of an underdog angle and a 'badass' clip to attach.
But she had a lovely quality to her skating, and she was interesting to read about - even if it was tiresome seeing the cliche and racist ‘she was the athletic one and Witt was the artistic one’ so much. She seemed like a bright, determined, and charismatic woman, even if the run-up to the Olympics and her later career turned out sadly for her. I hope things are going better for her now.