smell

-Josephine anon

SORRRY if you waited. i finally had my last exam and now im OVER with all of them!!! so everybody expect me to be overly active againnn .

(irrelevant ramble abt what happened lately) i have lots of opinions, although I feel some misinterpret it horribly. Bcs I think I just mentioned Choliszt size difference some says ago and it felt like I push ED or overly feminize Chopin which I didn't mean😭😭😭 I think Chopin's fragility and illness and his extremely low weight is good to analyze not in a twink way, but in an actual addition to his distaste for healthy people and how it contrasts with Liszt in the sense of being unpleasing to even stand or see him maybe. I do anything to see all the nuances of my ships lowkkkk . Also, I understand it might be triggering or uncomfy to speak abt this condition, but I wouldn't it ignore it either, bcs there are real people who deal with similar stuff and It feels like shaming if I call it uncomfy. I just wanna speak as objectively as possible.

About BPD , I always kinda assumed it too, again, even if it's a heavy diagnostic I dont have the calification for. You lowk right, and even more funny, it might feel like it shows even in his music??? . With this study sessions, I had Beethoven on REPEAT and it stood out how sometimes it can sound so heavily or sometimes take me under a storm. It is super interesting and I think undeniably a reflection of his own mind. I used to sometimes get those Historical Fanpages slideshows on tiktok, and more than twice I seen Beethoven diagnosed with BPD. It feels like there couldn't be more of a good diagnosis

The womb envy Thing I seen it some days ago on Twitter from a radfem, and I was reading what she was saying abt how it mostly can be this big reason for patriarchy being the way it is and how men are jealous over it. Fair to say, I didn't knew much about it , and assumed it was a paralel to Freud's "penis envy"🤣 But I feel like the womb envy makes more sense to me in general. So take that, Freudddy (It is very funny to me how he refused to analyze Mozart's poo poo letters like damn how bad can it BE😪😪)

About assigning this to Beethoven, it just came in my mind as I was reading that Twitter Thread. I imagine in Beethoven it might be something building up for a while. It starts with how He looks up to his mother and when he loses her, he becomes the head of the house cus Johann good for NOTHING! (cna we talk how young it was like sometimes it kills me 16 is such a baby nr lik u is still a toddler in my head). It pushes him to be both the father and mother to his brothers.

Now, I think after moving to Vienna , constantly having crushes left and right, he sees women as these simple "beautiful beings" (again yes I dare say Beethoven fell in love a bit shallow and for some reason I also would say he wasn't interested in personality dat much . Is Incel Beethoven thread planned for another day? Might BE), eventually, we will stop seeing it happen from 1815. Why? Because he is obviously busy getting Karl's custody. And I think it comes with the deep unsastisfaction in him about creating so many songs and so much greatness , and yet he might see Women as doing something more complex and beautiful: giving live. Because it's one of nature's biggest gifts do that and he sees these Women he cant get do something bigger than music. I'd say it's also his desire for his own dream of a functional family, but I feel like it could also be this jealousy and resenting of build up frustration on Women and wanting to do the same thing they do; to create life himself when He can't make it work.

His custody fight blah blah blah. Again, we talked about many reasons why Beethoven would push for this, but if there's one thing that still stuck to me since We Had this conversation, it was that little passage:

I gen think Beethoven wanted to feel this connection with Karl as he birthed him in all senses. That it would probe not only that he can be the good father, but again, subcounciously, be the mom who done the miracle , create life and show he is somehow even superior than these women who dared to Reject him. It is fairly insane , I won't lie to you, but Beethoven also claimed he lived for his craft and that's why he can't end his life in the letter to Wegeler. His craft is to give life. Specifically to music, but it can also be prone to wish for more.

YEESS like im so inbetween bcs yes it sounds overly fantasy , but there are also too many coincidences. Also , again, I understand making assumptions cannot ever be taken as actual evidence in history, but since most assume Antoine can be the Beloved, while we never had found any other source of mutual love, I can also assume Josephine COULD had been able to smuggle into Prague without being noted into those Fremdenprotokoll they claim makes Antoine the ultimate candidate.

Rekindle their relationship? Also possible, even though most still seem to be against the idea. Why wouldn't it be possible? Didn't they themselves most probably planned the meeting in Baden 1816? Beethoven reconnected romantically when her first husband died.. Why wouldn't he do it again when her second husband gone too lmao? Yes, it is quite the break of a few years; but if it was one woman who I imagine he would pull back in for, it is only Josephine.

it makes me laugh to consider the ''termination of their friendship'' as proof she couldn't be Beloved. But sure, the Antoine who never claimed or confessed or absolutely anything, we should assume she could had been the correspondent of this highly ''MUTUAL'' letter!! It don't fall for me. Her saying Beethoven is a great guy or having the Stieler miniature painting don't mean anything even a slight bit romantic to me.

I don't agree that Antoine being there (with her husband mind you) means she and Ludwig done anything. It just seems so .. random to me and I will never ever ever warm up to this idea either. I don't really recall Solomon's theory, since he was on team Antoine, but it was something along the lines of Beethoven confessing or bonding emotionally and just her rejecting it.?? I BORIN! hah =ok no, but while it sounds plausible , cus beethoven would fall in love, , i cant find it even a slight bit true. idk i cant put it into words..

Regarding if Beethoven knew or not knew, as from the image above, I tried to reread his letters from April 1813, Minona's birth month and search for the sentence where he claims he cannot stay in Vienna any longer which has been quoted by some people as proof of the fact ''he knew''

This letter was wrote on April 8th, one day before Minona's birth. Is it a bit weird and out of place ? Certainly. But tbf in this case, I do think he had no clue and must had been something else?? It comes down to each one's interpretation of what would had Beethoven actually do..

What is making me wonder is if it was possible for Josephine and Beethoven to meet in Vienna afterwards. If they wanted to or if they did. If not... at least the rumors or some sort of gossip to reach him about her carrying or what she does. This stuff must had happened even back then in Vienna ? LIKE spill the tea.

Yeah ,no , i THINK beethoven always proved through and through that he values HIS family at least with top priority. Mama, not allowing others to speak bad about his dada, even his shitass brothers and , without a doubt, Karl. If Beethoven knew or suspected, his big ass mouth would had been running. Also he would had nothing to lose. It would be the absolute proof of what he longed for and getting a heir.

Imagine how glad he would had been if he saw her pick up being a pianist :( GRAAAH wont imagine wont imagne I WONT

AGAIn, i had realised i didn't answer ur question in one clear answer and will do so here: some say he knew, some say he didnt. Imo , he didnt. It would be uncharacteristic to not cling to his only heir. We def dont have proof of him meeting with Josephine to see her in any state of pregnancy, anyone speaking about it to him, or any of that sort.

goatz:

Helloooooooo Thereee!!!!!!!!!!! I haven't had a Beethoven ask in so long so Im hapspapayay to see this. Never everrrr apologise , people are free to text and send whatever about Beethoven (or anything they have in their mind!).

Minona has been approached as a passing subject once, but I must had forgotten my take back then 😭😭. Also since this is rare, I will have my chance to ramble about the lay out and then my opinion. If you wish the shorter answer, I will put it at the end of this post!! The first part is for those who might not be familiar with it.

First things first, obviously, I am on the team Josephine for the "Immortal Beloved". Since there are only 2 contenders who have back-up evidence, I do not rule Bentanto out entirely. Anything could had been possible. Maybe with another occasion, I will speak about all the possible scenarios and evidence for these 2 girlies and everyone can assume or choose which one seems more fitting.

This is pretty much relevant , because from this letter (6-7th July 1812) comes hand in hand the biggest coincidence !! : after 9 months , Josephine gives birth to Minona. His most famous letter on love literally prescipts in a lil Babygirl?

Question 1. Was it possible for her to meet Beethoven in the time frame for him to be considered the father ?

The biggest proof against the Josephine theory, unlike Antoine's case, is the lack of evidence about her whereabouts this specific time. We do not have the absolute proof she was in Prague in that time frame, so as far as I've learnt from all these biographers, I cannot make simple assumptions for facts without evidence.

What we do know for sure is that: 1. Stackelberg had left her in June 1812 and was definitely away in July too . 2. Jospehine writes about wishing to see Prague, . 3. Therese's diary, the sister of Josephine, also abruptly stops around this time. So the meeting was possible to achieve if they wished so.

Stackelberg, by all accounts, could had not been the possible biological father of the girl.

Question 2. Would had Beethoven rekindle an old flame ?

Yes. Absolutely It would be his third time reconnecting with her. We also know for sure she is the ONLY mutual love. (i have still a few opinions about that too but meh). There isn't proof for Antoine like there is for Josephine for an actual exchange of love. He would most definitely yearn to reconnect with her in all possible ways.

Question 3. Would they had slept with eachother.

Sure.

Good!!!!!!! Now of course, ASSUMING all these, there can be foundation for the possibility of fathering a child in this timeframe. Josephine gives birth and calls her Minona. As most point out , this unconventional name can be read backwards and see ''Anonim''. This is lowkey such a ...cool name..Not the situation, but the prospect of doing that. Like damn.

Surprisingly, the girl grows out to compose and have a fiery temperament. Therese outright calls her the most genius out of all her siblings. Who ELSE was an absolute genius? DADA, dats right.

We will look a bit on the physical way and well, again, make your own assumption if they could share some genes. Like mannnn, dont telll me she doesn't have the same head-shape and even nose. I know looking similar isn't necessarily the ''proof'', but it is so surprisingly convenient she does. she makes it sm easier with this..

THE END AND CONCLUSION AND MY (mean) TAKE

NOW, at the end , for my opinion? OOOh this one is gon' be lowkey crazy to admit. Okay, the scholars who deny this theory usually claim is too fantastical or drama-like to be true. And sure, fair, it might seem so. But at the same time,, it doesn't? Not to me . These stuff about a quick fling happens all the time, why wouldn't it be true in this case either? Also all Josephine does is get pregnant anyway, Beethoven just another man in line.

Do I deny it in my head ? Constantly. Yes. I am on two fronts. I think it is more than highly possible, maybe 95% belief that he is the father of this girl. But the part of my head that absolutely denies it comes to the fact is another devastating event in his life that he didn't need. It does nothing but add up to he pile of ironical cruel jokes Ludwig deals with. I won't even recount all , as most know them, but of course being deaf is one of the most ironical thing when you are such a talented composer. Beethoven longed for a family and most obviously to be a father. The concept of Josephine, his great love ( not me??) to had this child and he never was able to be the father he wanted to be. We see this in the absolute desperate attempts of calling himself a father to his nephew. If he would had known it was his, he would had went through Hell and back to raise her because that's how he is. But from what I've seen, there is no account he knew or had met her.

Also like , again, in my parasocial MIND, which I agree is also biased and not reasonable.... Josephine dont deserve that ... Like your life already shit, but don't make Beethoven's life even shitter omgggg DONT! like i think i cannot stomach it . The idea of her being with Beethoven simply dont sit right with me. Im trying to be understanding , but I cant. Not too much. Forgiev me Josephine anon, u are still a gem in my head.