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hi peck!!! new tweos chapter, wow!
Standing Still/Ch62 is very dense (and yet we're already nearing what was once the halfway mark word count-wise in a quarter of Part 1's chapter count... scary...), but what I specifically want your thoughts on now is this current arc and how it's set up Emilie so far, particularly her and Adrien's relationship. Case in point:
---
ââŚWas she a good mother?â
That was harder for him to answer.
âI think that what she was to me, at that time⌠it was a kindness compared to everything my father put the both of us through. I think she was a nice mother,â he decided, âbecause she always talked to me so softly, and even when she was angry it would only come out as self-pity. âAnd she would give me hugs. Not if I wanted them, just when she did. Maybe itâs complicated. Everyoneâs relationship with their mother has to be complicated. I think thatâs why I believe I wouldâve forgiven her for it all so easily.â
---
I think it's extremely interesting the way he's constructed something completely untrue to (correctly) blame Gabriel for Emilie's death (i.e. the suicide explanation), yet resents his mother as seen in Inheriting, but also expresses a desire to forgive her. He's almost sympathetic, in a way? Despite the fact that Emilie has been explicitly shown to be complicit in Adrien's sexual abuse.
On another note, I think Adrien getting so close to the obvious truth about the others in the culmination of the Core 4 Conversations but not fully getting there is so fun is a cosmic-irony sort of way. Like always, he's barred from knowing the truth, but in this situation it's presented much differently and even as part- willful ignorance because he'd otherwise be accepting that his "friends" would fucking hate him if he wasn't Adrien. All in all, we're one chapter further along, and I'm very happy.
hello Wis! nightmare chapter, so excellent as usual â¤ď¸
more under the cut :P (cw: discussion of csa, incest, misogyny, racism)
boy do I have thoughts... TWEoS is working on a couple different levels intertwined in its structure that I kind of have no other way to talk about them but to pick at a couple things and hope it works out, so here goes lol
I think the most incisive parts of this chapter when it comes to Adrien's almost-sympathy for Ămilie come in the flashback section, kind of just all of it to be honest. I'm going to start kind of counter-intuitively at the end because I think the front part has fascinating structural implications that lead into talking about the ending scenes
Ămilie calling Adrien by her name is, to me, the most implicative part of this scene; of course, this is an extension of her seeing Adrien as little more than her doll/her mirror, but I can't help but also find it kind of tragic. in her imagining of herself as the successful model and the perfect mother-wife, there is no room for sadness for how people have treated her, meaning she can only feel sad for her mirror.
I think this is the part that Adrien connects to because there is something deeply sad about being sorry for yourself (even if it means displacing the presence and materiality of your son). that said, I don't think it helps that Ămilie is literally modelling a way to cope with being abused that comforts? Adrien as wellâI'm thinking here of him staring at his own wax statue and 'displacing', in some sense, the tragedy of what happened to him onto this thing, or even of The Princess, as a very literal compartmentalization of his most cynical doomed feelings. the two-step of both being not okay with what was done to you and yet being the sort of personâeither by grooming or by kwami mind controlâthat will try to understand it anyway
(and this helps lead into my point about kwami mind control/grooming/roles)
the fact that Emilie clarifies it's only because Audrey is not his mom works well because of how stratified roles and the idea of 'being someone' in TWEoS is written out. I find it deeply compelling that this is also the chapter where some of the string-pulling nonsense the kwamis get up to is brought into full focus, because they really point to how they function in the same way. everyone has their role, and in the demand for Adrien to be the forgiving, gracious mirrorâfor Adrien as Emilie's son, Nino's best friend, Marinette's love interestâit doesn't really matter if it's a product of the coercive force of social dynamics and/or familial incest or of the kwamis' production of a story.
and it's the kind of thing that is true for everyone; does it really matter if Alya and Nino are forced to be sanded-off perfectly pleasant best friend archetypes because of structural racism or because there are gods threatening and mind controlling them? does it matter if Marinette is retreating to her own mind palace to avoid the reality of awful behaviour from adults around her or if she really is just imagining the dream scenario with Adrien?
which is, as you say, the kind of dramatic irony of Adrien's situation; he wants to "get their stories straight", but there is no story to get straight because it's entirely someone else's. even the repetition of Adrien/Claudia wondering if it was "a prank" plays into this senseâa show entirely for someone else to laugh at with no regard for the people involved. and so his exchange with Plagg at the end is the same, because it doesn't really matter one way or the other.
Before I start anything, I HIGHLY recommend everyone check out Peck's thoughts as always~
Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head! I believe the only thing worth mentioning once again for its eventual relevance is the bit about sympathyâAdrien may be a victim of Ămilie, but he recognizes that they have some solidarity through both being victims of Gabriel. In that sense, the chain of the abuse is yet again reinforcing the familial hierarchy. His retroactive fantasy gets at that a little, I think; He wishes his mother had also recognized their solidarity and not left him alone with the absolute monster that is his father.
I'm also very glad you brought up Marinette retreating back into her fantasy with "Adrien", since I worry it'd be really easy to otherwise interpret Gabriel's comment as Kung Food style shock value. This is by far the most sympathetic moment Marinette has in the entire fic so far, and it's sad seeing just how darn cute she can be knowing both what she's done and what she herself has been put through.
Regarding Adrien's persistent romantic goals, that's going to be directly questioned by him in the next "chapter batch" I plan on sending out, as the next three chapters are shorter but make the most sense if read in succession. It goes back to the idea you specifically mentioned where these "role-assigning" forces at play can either be interpersonal or mandated by the universe... Why does Adrien care about romantic love so bad? Marriage, even? How much of it is due to his programming as Marinette's love interest? How much of it is a product of his childhood?
(Again, we know it doesn't matter. He hasn't gotten there yet.)
on the solidarity pieceâI think I cut a mention of this because I was like arghh my yammering is all over the place, but yes! this solidarity piece is something I find very interesting, especially as it pertains to previous discussions of sympathy and asymmetrical power dynamics.
when I was thinking about Ămilie and Adrien, I also kind of tangentially was thinking about the Luka + Juleka one-shot, which I think weirdly displays a similar kind of familiarity/solidarity, but where Adrien directs it inwards to recognized the shared abuse, Luka directs it outwards to reject the idea that he might be similar. the idea that you hate the thing in others that you hate in yourself
as for Marinetteâit must hurt to be constantly told you're god's favourite, only for the world around you to keep trying to intrude on your fantasy. it must simply be because you're not trying hard enough to believe in it. Tikki's classic carrot-and-stick bit
hi peck!!! new tweos chapter, wow!
Standing Still/Ch62 is very dense (and yet we're already nearing what was once the halfway mark word count-wise in a quarter of Part 1's chapter count... scary...), but what I specifically want your thoughts on now is this current arc and how it's set up Emilie so far, particularly her and Adrien's relationship. Case in point:
---
ââŚWas she a good mother?â
That was harder for him to answer.
âI think that what she was to me, at that time⌠it was a kindness compared to everything my father put the both of us through. I think she was a nice mother,â he decided, âbecause she always talked to me so softly, and even when she was angry it would only come out as self-pity. âAnd she would give me hugs. Not if I wanted them, just when she did. Maybe itâs complicated. Everyoneâs relationship with their mother has to be complicated. I think thatâs why I believe I wouldâve forgiven her for it all so easily.â
---
I think it's extremely interesting the way he's constructed something completely untrue to (correctly) blame Gabriel for Emilie's death (i.e. the suicide explanation), yet resents his mother as seen in Inheriting, but also expresses a desire to forgive her. He's almost sympathetic, in a way? Despite the fact that Emilie has been explicitly shown to be complicit in Adrien's sexual abuse.
On another note, I think Adrien getting so close to the obvious truth about the others in the culmination of the Core 4 Conversations but not fully getting there is so fun is a cosmic-irony sort of way. Like always, he's barred from knowing the truth, but in this situation it's presented much differently and even as part- willful ignorance because he'd otherwise be accepting that his "friends" would fucking hate him if he wasn't Adrien. All in all, we're one chapter further along, and I'm very happy.
hello Wis! nightmare chapter, so excellent as usual â¤ď¸
more under the cut :P (cw: discussion of csa, incest, misogyny, racism)
boy do I have thoughts... TWEoS is working on a couple different levels intertwined in its structure that I kind of have no other way to talk about them but to pick at a couple things and hope it works out, so here goes lol
I think the most incisive parts of this chapter when it comes to Adrien's almost-sympathy for Ămilie come in the flashback section, kind of just all of it to be honest. I'm going to start kind of counter-intuitively at the end because I think the front part has fascinating structural implications that lead into talking about the ending scenes
Ămilie calling Adrien by her name is, to me, the most implicative part of this scene; of course, this is an extension of her seeing Adrien as little more than her doll/her mirror, but I can't help but also find it kind of tragic. in her imagining of herself as the successful model and the perfect mother-wife, there is no room for sadness for how people have treated her, meaning she can only feel sad for her mirror.
I think this is the part that Adrien connects to because there is something deeply sad about being sorry for yourself (even if it means displacing the presence and materiality of your son). that said, I don't think it helps that Ămilie is literally modelling a way to cope with being abused that comforts? Adrien as wellâI'm thinking here of him staring at his own wax statue and 'displacing', in some sense, the tragedy of what happened to him onto this thing, or even of The Princess, as a very literal compartmentalization of his most cynical doomed feelings. the two-step of both being not okay with what was done to you and yet being the sort of personâeither by grooming or by kwami mind controlâthat will try to understand it anyway
(and this helps lead into my point about kwami mind control/grooming/roles)
the fact that Emilie clarifies it's only because Audrey is not his mom works well because of how stratified roles and the idea of 'being someone' in TWEoS is written out. I find it deeply compelling that this is also the chapter where some of the string-pulling nonsense the kwamis get up to is brought into full focus, because they really point to how they function in the same way. everyone has their role, and in the demand for Adrien to be the forgiving, gracious mirrorâfor Adrien as Emilie's son, Nino's best friend, Marinette's love interestâit doesn't really matter if it's a product of the coercive force of social dynamics and/or familial incest or of the kwamis' production of a story.
and it's the kind of thing that is true for everyone; does it really matter if Alya and Nino are forced to be sanded-off perfectly pleasant best friend archetypes because of structural racism or because there are gods threatening and mind controlling them? does it matter if Marinette is retreating to her own mind palace to avoid the reality of awful behaviour from adults around her or if she really is just imagining the dream scenario with Adrien?
which is, as you say, the kind of dramatic irony of Adrien's situation; he wants to "get their stories straight", but there is no story to get straight because it's entirely someone else's. even the repetition of Adrien/Claudia wondering if it was "a prank" plays into this senseâa show entirely for someone else to laugh at with no regard for the people involved. and so his exchange with Plagg at the end is the same, because it doesn't really matter one way or the other.
I LIVE to see you make mlb relationships toxic and unfun. Eating up the way you wrote the inescapable secundary position of the Alya/Marinette friendship in your last Alya one-shot, and now the Lukanette one.
I love the amount of awkwardness that hangs around the toxicity, letting it prevail in banal situations to show how long the novelty has worn off; and how much shame there is, specially when relating to doubt, that you put between a lot of characters in the relationships you write, romantic and not.
Take as many horses you want, glue factory owner.
based on this post https://www.tumblr.com/wisteriasymphony/813111151466545152/do-you-need-a-shield-to-protect-you-from-all-the?source=share
Yaaaay!!!!! Thank you so much <3 Showing off these little oneshots for the larger TWEoS world has been very fun, and hopefully if I get it to a publishable state there's at least ooone more that I could probably show with Luka and Juleka and a bit of Adrien, though because of the way it's set up it would have to be a noncanon "what-if" sort of thingy.
Actually, if anyone is so inclined to see what I mean....
---
Juleka looked back up at Luka through her peekaboo bangs. It took a minute of staring for Luka to get the hint.
"Oh my god, I did not drug him."
"Did I say that?" she responded. "I never said you did anything."
Luka took another swig from his bottle of beer, stepping back to rest his elbow on top of the television. "He's basically ten kilograms and probably hasn't been allowed to touch a drink in his life, he just probably couldn't handle the alcohol. Why the hell is that my fault?"
Juleka neglected to respond, only holding her unconvinced stare. She looked to Adrien, his head nestled in folded-up arms on the armrest of the couch. Maybe it wasn't exactly what anyone would come up with imagining a roofied girl (let alone a roofied guy), but she still had a feeling.
"What would Marinette think?"Â
Luka straightened out his back, like that was the last thing he'd expected Juleka to bring up. "You and Marinette haven't been friends since collĂŠge, why do you care?"
Juleka moved closer to Adrien, tilting her head to rest on his shoulder. She could feel him breathing, which was good because if he was dead there'd be a lot more to deal with. "I'm just saying," she shrugged, "...And do you keep inviting over all your groupies for one-night stands because you know that if a girl got to know you she wouldn't want to fuck you?"
"What the hell?!"
Juleka blew her bangs out of her eyes, tucking some of the little cascade of purple and pink behind her ear. "I mean, I don't care about any of that stuff."
"Oh, but you care about what you think I might do?" he retorted. "I'm not gay, Juleka."
"I never said you were going to do gay shit."
Juleka never thought to get too close to Adrien over the three years they'd been in Françoise Dupont together. She didn't like him the way most girls didâNothing about Disney Channel boys with their beachy blonde locks and winning smiles and faint tapers of abs appealedâso she felt no reason to. So she was only struck then, when Juleka could stare right at his face, that Adrien looked like a girl when he slept. Long perfectly curled eyelashes, parted lips, a flush on his cheeks that hadn't realized the alcohol was mostly gone. No, not just a girl... a movie star. Something familiar. The stereotype of a pretty girl.Â
The arm Juleka had put over Adrien like a seatbelt (a guard against her brother) fell down, the slow breath in his chest only noticeable through the faintest brush against her Sharpied fingertips. Curious, Juleka pressed her hand against his chest to feel if her eyes weren't deceiving her and there was something Adrien was hiding underneath his shirt.Â
His chest was flat.
Before she'd found her calling as a Killeuse, with its parties and kandi and glomping, Juleka had been a quiet and almost mousy elementary schooler. Her tongue would trip over her teeth, jumbling words that could only come out in a sheepish mutter. For the first time in years, Juleka relapsed into that mumbly and dour tone knowing Luka had always been the one who understood it.
"I don't think this is funny."
Luka got up to head to his room, and even though he kept his shoulders straight Juleka knew that he did it to hide. Little miscellany sounds echoed from the crack of his door as Luka pretended to busy himself with an instrument or two.
"I don't really care what you think is funny."
"You're an asshole."
"He had it coming."
Juleka huddled up against Adrien even further. It didn't feel weird the way it would have with a real guy; Adrien and his body were a boy in the same way a teddy bear was, in a way. She frowned, her eyes still locked on the door to Luka's room.
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
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Hi Peck!!!!
I've been clearing out some old chunks of writing that I think can exist as functional oneshots, and there's this in particular surrounding Lukanette that I just published: https://archiveofourown.org/works/82547811
The reason I ask, of course, is that you had some very wonderful thoughts to share on Marinette with regards to the themes of misogyny within TWEoS, and I'm curious if this oneshot changes your interpretation/bolsters your interpretation/etc, since it has misogynist sentiments being shared by both Luka and Marinette.
No pressure, of course! Feel free to read/answer at your own pace! Your contributions to discussion have already been GREAT and I'm sort of awestruck by how well you understand what I'm trying to get at teehee :3
omg yay yippee I love reading
everything under the cut because I realized I have so much to say. eto... bleh...
cw: discussion of misogyny, misogynoir, sexism, homophobia, racism. just in case!
god, Luka and Marinette are so awful; at least I can kind of understand it in Marinette's case, she thinks she can escape by performing being the perfect woman. I'm sorry the gods think this is actually how the world should be!!
not really much to be said about Luka... it's a little funny that he is so insistent on the homophobia angle, since his whole shtick does seem like the sort of thing people would blast guys in the 2000s for being too gay (i.e. too feminine). wearing eyeliner, having a large female audience (even if you are well-known for your sleeping around) + girl jeans lolol.
there's something kind of funky going on about that dynamic between Adrien and Luka, even if it's (mostly?) one-sided. not that we know much about how Luka has been received outside of his relationship w. Lucky/as Viperion. however, if feminization is the sort of thing people concern-troll him about, Luka probably does feel like Adrien is simultaneously an easier target while still being enough of "a man" to warrant ripping into as not-a-man.
I'm pretty sure Luka in this AU is not racialized/East Asian? (as is a common? headcanon? I say tentatively)âparticularly because of his comment about Kagami eating dogs (but like... the number of times I've seen EAsians do it to other EAsians... you could fill a room in hell). but if he was, I think it adds to this kind of resentment/vindictiveness (inferiority/superiority) dynamic; probably feels sooo good to tear down a White guy who simultaneously ticks many of the classic boxes of masculinity* and is also an easy target. that is, if you're the worst person ever.
*as in he is, of course, White in the most European way possible; conventionally attractive; dresses archetypically 'masculine' with his, to be overly reductive, 'light academia' aesthetic, even if his public persona doesn't. (though I'd buy the argument that 'light academia' is also 'feminized' aesthetic; I've gone on long enough, though). I'll also clarify that it's probably appealing insofar as Adrien is 'privately' masculine when his public persona is feminized; the same cannot be said for Luka, who wears his aesthetic 24/7. another reason why it might feel good!
sidebar: if it is the case that Luka is the way I've described above re: racial conflict, he's a little like Alex from Elaine Hsieh Chou's Disorientation, in which he's an incel... chalk another one up to book parallels!
wow, look at that, I actually had a lot to say about Luka. whoopsie!
onto the actual star of the show, Marinette: to come back to the whole performance thing, I think it's extra juicy given she's (unknown to herself) aro but also unconsciously buys deeply into comphet (as you mention in the tags of your swap!Claudia art). to that end, Luka is maybe a little right in that Adrien's appeal is his... feminized atypical sexuality, even if Luka's just using it for boy points.
it's very classically (lesbian) comphet in that way! Marinette desires a man who is unavailable to her in both a difference of public status and difference of sexuality. even if she consciously performs a desire for Adrien and seeks to equalize their standings (and this is not to deny Marinette agency on this matter lol), it's a lot easier to like a guy who doesn't actually exist on the same romantic level.
especially when compared to Luka, who exists really undeniably, both as her 'boyfriend' and as a man (in the trappings of heterosexuality). he is proud of his sexual conquests (the bra), he (assuming Adrien's not just freaking out out of his mind) needles Adrien about sexuality during the party chapter. when faced with the choice of being functionally being sexually harassed by her own boyfriend OR escaping to a situation where, at least, she can imagine someone who is perfect and sexy and yet never extantly doing sex Unto Her, and especially not as a masculine posture thing (even if his midriff is exposed, he doesn't even take his shirt off!), it's no surprise Marinette chooses her (increasingly) minimal opportunities to own her own fantasies.**
plus, it doesn't help that both the powerful mediums of advertising and kwami mind control are basically funnelling her towards one escape. get married, and have it at least be someone who won't hurt you.
**another footnote!! spoiled for choice here. I think this comes back to what we originally (?) first talked about with regards to the three options for coping with misogynistic expectation. there's something of the nominal refusal here, in the same way those Really Makes You Think "what if the roles of men and women were swapped" skits were, if you ever saw those lol. or, to continue with the RGU theme, like if Marinette had Anthy's role with Utena's (limited) ability to push back.
not to get too deep into a comparison, but it's also a little like how Jenny Nicholson phrased her experience of watching one of the Fifty Shades movies. she was describing enjoying the experience of pretending to be someone who enjoyed the FSoG story and was happy for the characters, before realizing the assumed experience was actually being that person rather than like, roleplaying. in a similar way, Marinette (unconsciously!) maybe isn't happy for 'herself' (as in her everyday life) but for the idea of Marinette that has been promised to her. her lobotomysona. coping with her acceptance of her role through a nominal refusal, in that she "gets" to perform her part, and protecting that image with emulations of how others talk about other young women. she'll never be that way because she's self-aware! she's choosing! she's empowered! what do you mean advertising makes a thing for you to desire to sell it to you
in short... I think my interpretation still holds, but then I'll always be on the side of the girls. you have to fight against the weight of societal misogyny; who am I to deny you your coping mechanisms?
maybe read gender trouble and also some Stuart Hall on the question of advertising and representation, though.
FINAL NOTE, not about this one-shot lol but the Alya one. I really liked it!!! she deserves so much depth that I think you captured well here. I especially love when Trixx threatens Alya by saying "You cease to be Rena, and the only thing you'll be is Marinette's best friend. I don't think you want that."
it's sooo skin-crawling... Alya can only desire things so far as Marinette desires them, because even though Marinette is still grappling with the weight of 2008 misogyny, she still has glimpses of access to power. Alya must align with her; if she goes against her, she 'perishes'. much like the historical struggle from Black feminists on what White feminism can/does/cannot/does not include. and the one little piece of power that Alya gets that is wholly her ownâthat is, being Renaâis forever tied to Marinette. makes you really appreciate why Claudia was like, fuck all that noise.
YIPPEE!!!!! I cannot stress to any of my followers enough just how valuable Peck's commentary is. They explain so much of the deeper mechanisms to TWEoS better than I ever could. Click on the read more!! CLICK ON IT!!!!
To answer your question, the Couffaines are in fact Asian, just incredibly white-passing. Luka and Juleka are Nagas*, Kazakh, and Malaysian, and there's an added complexity in him being "not what white people think of when they think of Asian", as he both slips under the radar so to speak and comes off as ridiculously stupid when he makes racist comments towards Kagami. So, all of your points on the complexity that adds to Adrien and Luka's dynamic still hold true!
*If anybody who follows me is unawareâThis is not to be literally confused with "NÄgas", the mythological snake-creature, though the wordplay is acknowledged. "Nagas" as in "from Nagaland".
You're entirely right about Adrien being a "safe" target for Marinette's desire, and I'm sure she's not the only teenage girl in Paris that this applies to. His utility as a celebrity is just that as Adrien Agreste, Perfect Boyfriend. Whether you're hopelessly single or stuck with a shitty human boyfriend, the diaphanous pretty-boy egregore Adrien is there to comfort you and ask for nothing in return.
God, is there really anything else left for me to say? I don't think I could even if I tried. Bravo. The inspiration fuel your analysis gives me will last me months. Thank you sooo so so much!
yess, the reveal that TWEoS Marinette was aro (which I at least think I first read in the tags of that swap!Claudia post?) was soo great as a story point but so awful. free my girl Marinette from the horror of her life even if everything she does sends her deeper. it's not her fault. well it is but it's also not her fault.
I think I latched onto the fact pretty hard in context with the drawings Wis did with the post-TWEoS (in a sense) Marinette, and specifically their mention of how "she loses the ahoge in her heart once she finally gets over adrien/away from the control of the lovesquare" ... they baked a narrow idea of romance into her very body!!! absolutely awful, but 10/10 design detail.
also, yeahâI was hesitant to say for sure they were racialized/specifically East Asian in some way, but... if they didn't want people assuming that, they shouldn't've given both Couffaine siblings the Asian Hair Streak. (the Wiki is incidentally mum on the subject)
Hi Peck!!!!
I've been clearing out some old chunks of writing that I think can exist as functional oneshots, and there's this in particular surrounding Lukanette that I just published: https://archiveofourown.org/works/82547811
The reason I ask, of course, is that you had some very wonderful thoughts to share on Marinette with regards to the themes of misogyny within TWEoS, and I'm curious if this oneshot changes your interpretation/bolsters your interpretation/etc, since it has misogynist sentiments being shared by both Luka and Marinette.
No pressure, of course! Feel free to read/answer at your own pace! Your contributions to discussion have already been GREAT and I'm sort of awestruck by how well you understand what I'm trying to get at teehee :3
omg yay yippee I love reading
everything under the cut because I realized I have so much to say. eto... bleh...
cw: discussion of misogyny, misogynoir, sexism, homophobia, racism. just in case!
god, Luka and Marinette are so awful; at least I can kind of understand it in Marinette's case, she thinks she can escape by performing being the perfect woman. I'm sorry the gods think this is actually how the world should be!!
not really much to be said about Luka... it's a little funny that he is so insistent on the homophobia angle, since his whole shtick does seem like the sort of thing people would blast guys in the 2000s for being too gay (i.e. too feminine). wearing eyeliner, having a large female audience (even if you are well-known for your sleeping around) + girl jeans lolol.
there's something kind of funky going on about that dynamic between Adrien and Luka, even if it's (mostly?) one-sided. not that we know much about how Luka has been received outside of his relationship w. Lucky/as Viperion. however, if feminization is the sort of thing people concern-troll him about, Luka probably does feel like Adrien is simultaneously an easier target while still being enough of "a man" to warrant ripping into as not-a-man.
I'm pretty sure Luka in this AU is not racialized/East Asian? (as is a common? headcanon? I say tentatively)âparticularly because of his comment about Kagami eating dogs (but like... the number of times I've seen EAsians do it to other EAsians... you could fill a room in hell). but if he was, I think it adds to this kind of resentment/vindictiveness (inferiority/superiority) dynamic; probably feels sooo good to tear down a White guy who simultaneously ticks many of the classic boxes of masculinity* and is also an easy target. that is, if you're the worst person ever.
*as in he is, of course, White in the most European way possible; conventionally attractive; dresses archetypically 'masculine' with his, to be overly reductive, 'light academia' aesthetic, even if his public persona doesn't. (though I'd buy the argument that 'light academia' is also 'feminized' aesthetic; I've gone on long enough, though). I'll also clarify that it's probably appealing insofar as Adrien is 'privately' masculine when his public persona is feminized; the same cannot be said for Luka, who wears his aesthetic 24/7. another reason why it might feel good!
sidebar: if it is the case that Luka is the way I've described above re: racial conflict, he's a little like Alex from Elaine Hsieh Chou's Disorientation, in which he's an incel... chalk another one up to book parallels!
wow, look at that, I actually had a lot to say about Luka. whoopsie!
onto the actual star of the show, Marinette: to come back to the whole performance thing, I think it's extra juicy given she's (unknown to herself) aro but also unconsciously buys deeply into comphet (as you mention in the tags of your swap!Claudia art). to that end, Luka is maybe a little right in that Adrien's appeal is his... feminized atypical sexuality, even if Luka's just using it for boy points.
it's very classically (lesbian) comphet in that way! Marinette desires a man who is unavailable to her in both a difference of public status and difference of sexuality. even if she consciously performs a desire for Adrien and seeks to equalize their standings (and this is not to deny Marinette agency on this matter lol), it's a lot easier to like a guy who doesn't actually exist on the same romantic level.
especially when compared to Luka, who exists really undeniably, both as her 'boyfriend' and as a man (in the trappings of heterosexuality). he is proud of his sexual conquests (the bra), he (assuming Adrien's not just freaking out out of his mind) needles Adrien about sexuality during the party chapter. when faced with the choice of being functionally being sexually harassed by her own boyfriend OR escaping to a situation where, at least, she can imagine someone who is perfect and sexy and yet never extantly doing sex Unto Her, and especially not as a masculine posture thing (even if his midriff is exposed, he doesn't even take his shirt off!), it's no surprise Marinette chooses her (increasingly) minimal opportunities to own her own fantasies.**
plus, it doesn't help that both the powerful mediums of advertising and kwami mind control are basically funnelling her towards one escape. get married, and have it at least be someone who won't hurt you.
**another footnote!! spoiled for choice here. I think this comes back to what we originally (?) first talked about with regards to the three options for coping with misogynistic expectation. there's something of the nominal refusal here, in the same way those Really Makes You Think "what if the roles of men and women were swapped" skits were, if you ever saw those lol. or, to continue with the RGU theme, like if Marinette had Anthy's role with Utena's (limited) ability to push back.
not to get too deep into a comparison, but it's also a little like how Jenny Nicholson phrased her experience of watching one of the Fifty Shades movies. she was describing enjoying the experience of pretending to be someone who enjoyed the FSoG story and was happy for the characters, before realizing the assumed experience was actually being that person rather than like, roleplaying. in a similar way, Marinette (unconsciously!) maybe isn't happy for 'herself' (as in her everyday life) but for the idea of Marinette that has been promised to her. her lobotomysona. coping with her acceptance of her role through a nominal refusal, in that she "gets" to perform her part, and protecting that image with emulations of how others talk about other young women. she'll never be that way because she's self-aware! she's choosing! she's empowered! what do you mean advertising makes a thing for you to desire to sell it to you
in short... I think my interpretation still holds, but then I'll always be on the side of the girls. you have to fight against the weight of societal misogyny; who am I to deny you your coping mechanisms?
maybe read gender trouble and also some Stuart Hall on the question of advertising and representation, though.
FINAL NOTE, not about this one-shot lol but the Alya one. I really liked it!!! she deserves so much depth that I think you captured well here. I especially love when Trixx threatens Alya by saying "You cease to be Rena, and the only thing you'll be is Marinette's best friend. I don't think you want that."
it's sooo skin-crawling... Alya can only desire things so far as Marinette desires them, because even though Marinette is still grappling with the weight of 2008 misogyny, she still has glimpses of access to power. Alya must align with her; if she goes against her, she 'perishes'. much like the historical struggle from Black feminists on what White feminism can/does/cannot/does not include. and the one little piece of power that Alya gets that is wholly her ownâthat is, being Renaâis forever tied to Marinette. makes you really appreciate why Claudia was like, fuck all that noise.
wait omg one more thing about the Alya one-shot (I cannot be contained)
I like that Trixx goes from calling her Alya ThÊrèse CÊsaire to just Alya ThÊrèse. really cutting the anti-colonialism out of Alya there! and reducing her to a French saint who believes in the small and the simple relinquishments that will eventually lead to God. I'm sure.
Hi Peck!!!!
I've been clearing out some old chunks of writing that I think can exist as functional oneshots, and there's this in particular surrounding Lukanette that I just published: https://archiveofourown.org/works/82547811
The reason I ask, of course, is that you had some very wonderful thoughts to share on Marinette with regards to the themes of misogyny within TWEoS, and I'm curious if this oneshot changes your interpretation/bolsters your interpretation/etc, since it has misogynist sentiments being shared by both Luka and Marinette.
No pressure, of course! Feel free to read/answer at your own pace! Your contributions to discussion have already been GREAT and I'm sort of awestruck by how well you understand what I'm trying to get at teehee :3
omg yay yippee I love reading
everything under the cut because I realized I have so much to say. eto... bleh...
cw: discussion of misogyny, misogynoir, sexism, homophobia, racism. just in case!
god, Luka and Marinette are so awful; at least I can kind of understand it in Marinette's case, she thinks she can escape by performing being the perfect woman. I'm sorry the gods think this is actually how the world should be!!
not really much to be said about Luka... it's a little funny that he is so insistent on the homophobia angle, since his whole shtick does seem like the sort of thing people would blast guys in the 2000s for being too gay (i.e. too feminine). wearing eyeliner, having a large female audience (even if you are well-known for your sleeping around) + girl jeans lolol.
there's something kind of funky going on about that dynamic between Adrien and Luka, even if it's (mostly?) one-sided. not that we know much about how Luka has been received outside of his relationship w. Lucky/as Viperion. however, if feminization is the sort of thing people concern-troll him about, Luka probably does feel like Adrien is simultaneously an easier target while still being enough of "a man" to warrant ripping into as not-a-man.
I'm pretty sure Luka in this AU is not racialized/East Asian? (as is a common? headcanon? I say tentatively)âparticularly because of his comment about Kagami eating dogs (but like... the number of times I've seen EAsians do it to other EAsians... you could fill a room in hell). but if he was, I think it adds to this kind of resentment/vindictiveness (inferiority/superiority) dynamic; probably feels sooo good to tear down a White guy who simultaneously ticks many of the classic boxes of masculinity* and is also an easy target. that is, if you're the worst person ever.
*as in he is, of course, White in the most European way possible; conventionally attractive; dresses archetypically 'masculine' with his, to be overly reductive, 'light academia' aesthetic, even if his public persona doesn't. (though I'd buy the argument that 'light academia' is also 'feminized' aesthetic; I've gone on long enough, though). I'll also clarify that it's probably appealing insofar as Adrien is 'privately' masculine when his public persona is feminized; the same cannot be said for Luka, who wears his aesthetic 24/7. another reason why it might feel good!
sidebar: if it is the case that Luka is the way I've described above re: racial conflict, he's a little like Alex from Elaine Hsieh Chou's Disorientation, in which he's an incel... chalk another one up to book parallels!
wow, look at that, I actually had a lot to say about Luka. whoopsie!
onto the actual star of the show, Marinette: to come back to the whole performance thing, I think it's extra juicy given she's (unknown to herself) aro but also unconsciously buys deeply into comphet (as you mention in the tags of your swap!Claudia art). to that end, Luka is maybe a little right in that Adrien's appeal is his... feminized atypical sexuality, even if Luka's just using it for boy points.
it's very classically (lesbian) comphet in that way! Marinette desires a man who is unavailable to her in both a difference of public status and difference of sexuality. even if she consciously performs a desire for Adrien and seeks to equalize their standings (and this is not to deny Marinette agency on this matter lol), it's a lot easier to like a guy who doesn't actually exist on the same romantic level.
especially when compared to Luka, who exists really undeniably, both as her 'boyfriend' and as a man (in the trappings of heterosexuality). he is proud of his sexual conquests (the bra), he (assuming Adrien's not just freaking out out of his mind) needles Adrien about sexuality during the party chapter. when faced with the choice of being functionally being sexually harassed by her own boyfriend OR escaping to a situation where, at least, she can imagine someone who is perfect and sexy and yet never extantly doing sex Unto Her, and especially not as a masculine posture thing (even if his midriff is exposed, he doesn't even take his shirt off!), it's no surprise Marinette chooses her (increasingly) minimal opportunities to own her own fantasies.**
plus, it doesn't help that both the powerful mediums of advertising and kwami mind control are basically funnelling her towards one escape. get married, and have it at least be someone who won't hurt you.
**another footnote!! spoiled for choice here. I think this comes back to what we originally (?) first talked about with regards to the three options for coping with misogynistic expectation. there's something of the nominal refusal here, in the same way those Really Makes You Think "what if the roles of men and women were swapped" skits were, if you ever saw those lol. or, to continue with the RGU theme, like if Marinette had Anthy's role with Utena's (limited) ability to push back.
not to get too deep into a comparison, but it's also a little like how Jenny Nicholson phrased her experience of watching one of the Fifty Shades movies. she was describing enjoying the experience of pretending to be someone who enjoyed the FSoG story and was happy for the characters, before realizing the assumed experience was actually being that person rather than like, roleplaying. in a similar way, Marinette (unconsciously!) maybe isn't happy for 'herself' (as in her everyday life) but for the idea of Marinette that has been promised to her. her lobotomysona. coping with her acceptance of her role through a nominal refusal, in that she "gets" to perform her part, and protecting that image with emulations of how others talk about other young women. she'll never be that way because she's self-aware! she's choosing! she's empowered! what do you mean advertising makes a thing for you to desire to sell it to you
in short... I think my interpretation still holds, but then I'll always be on the side of the girls. you have to fight against the weight of societal misogyny; who am I to deny you your coping mechanisms?
maybe read gender trouble and also some Stuart Hall on the question of advertising and representation, though.
FINAL NOTE, not about this one-shot lol but the Alya one. I really liked it!!! she deserves so much depth that I think you captured well here. I especially love when Trixx threatens Alya by saying "You cease to be Rena, and the only thing you'll be is Marinette's best friend. I don't think you want that."
it's sooo skin-crawling... Alya can only desire things so far as Marinette desires them, because even though Marinette is still grappling with the weight of 2008 misogyny, she still has glimpses of access to power. Alya must align with her; if she goes against her, she 'perishes'. much like the historical struggle from Black feminists on what White feminism can/does/cannot/does not include. and the one little piece of power that Alya gets that is wholly her ownâthat is, being Renaâis forever tied to Marinette. makes you really appreciate why Claudia was like, fuck all that noise.
out of curiousity, in your ways-of-coping-with-misogyny (emulation/acceptance/nominal refusal) where do you see TWEoS!Marinette falling in that spectrum? or is she a secret fourth thing (or all three)?
I personally see her as more aligned with nominal refusal (insofar as she is enabled to be a superhero, but that comes with acting in particular feminine ways/submitting to particular feminine expectations especially re: her dating Luka), but I can also see the argument for acceptance (given that Tikki is masterminding the whole thing, and Tikki is a conduit for certain fanon expectations that may skew misogynistic). maybe less emulation overall, but, hey, she called Adrien a bishie lol
That's such a good point to bring up... (Also I want to just take an aside and thank you for bringing that up yaaaaay I love getting the opportunity to engage with this theme of TWEoS!)
The thing with most of the girls in Adrien's general bracket is that they're usually a lot more nebulous as to what camp they fall into: They're not "women" yet, after all, so they haven't solidified what category they'll take on. For Kagami in particular, she'll unfortunately have a coming-of-age moment orchestrated her mother right before The Diamond Ball, but the rest of them could still be considered as struggling.
I said this ^^ a while ago while explaining the concept to a friend, but if I had to fit anyone into categories, Marinette is currently closest to an Emilie, and Kagami and Chloe are closest to a Tomoe. Claudia, on the other hand, will eventually show very clearly that she is none of these, and that's important. Of course she doesn't fit into any of these categories. She's never played by any of the rules! That's so important to her character.Â
Back on Marinette being closest to an Emilie (at least in my intention, I think you're right that as far as Lucky Lucky Ladybug is concerned her behavior can come off as Tomoe-esque), I tend to default to describing any instances of white associated with Marinette as "lily-white", and that's because of Emilie. This is because the white lily is a symbol of the Virgin Mary which I have in the back of my head as, like, a "connecting motif" between the two.
This is from a scene that might be buried in that old Ao3 Anthology fic, but Marinette trying to emulate Emilie in particular was something I played with a bit:Â
Unable to focus on what he was supposed to, Adrien instead noticed that Marinette was wearing that same familiar perfume again. It was the re-release of Aphrodite; A scent from Gabriel that his mother walked, talked, and nearly breathed advertisements for during the media's coverage of his parents' engagement. Old collections and prints in his father's collection always showed Emilie in blush pink silks and flower petals, and the most sensational was the one where his mother had her lips pursed into a deep red cherry, as the key ingredient was said to be "cherry hearts". Anybody with half a brain knew that cherries had a pit, and that they weren't exactly aromatic... but Adrien's mother could've sold the masses their own shit at the height of her popularity. Whether or not cherry hearts existed wasn't a concern anybody but Adrien had.
Of course, it's a whole thing that illocution and perlocution aren't the same, so my intentions and what the readers take away don't always line up all the time. You're right that me presenting her as hyperfeminine for male approval does not inherently make her an Emilie, but... If I can be completely honest, I think that execution gap is kind of cool so I'm not super broken up about it? If that makes sense? She is still, in some sense, sticking to her "roles" by pining after Adrien, but she's not cognizant of that.
Ugh, but then if I look back in TWEoS there's so many tiny pieces here and there where we can compare Emilie's "agency" through modeling to Marinette's superhero work.... Gabriel once specializing in power suits when Emilie was at the height of her career, Emilie's own goals of fame....
Ămilie tucked herself close to Gabriel as the paparazzi swarmed them the moment they exited the building. The sparkling explosion of cameras was like watching the sun hit ocean waves, a million little flashes of white light out over an expanse that never seemed to endâExcept Ămilie was in the water, in the light, constantly drinking in the eyes and the watching and the clamoring for her... Gabriel would do the dirty work, Gabriel would put in the hours. Ămilie would be made famous. (Show Business)
Wrapped around her torso like a book jacket was a scarlet corduroy blazer (double breasted, black buttons), the fabricâs wale catching a hint of diffused afternoon light from the window and weakening its color with the subtlest wash of a sterile, celestine blue. It was an offshoot of an old jacket his father had made in the late 80s: The power suits House Gabriel had exploded in popularly with, later pulled back into more demure ideals. Slimmer tailoring on the waist, brighter colors and smooth contours. What gave the alterations away were the seams in the shouldersâShoulder pads had been taken out to fit a sloping shoulder and a quieter mien. (TWEoS Part 2 Chapter 8)
Man, does this shit get complicated. You really have to appreciate just how dense TWEoS is for analysis, I don't think you can say that about fanfics very often. my pretentious lit student swag â¤ď¸
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out of curiousity, in your ways-of-coping-with-misogyny (emulation/acceptance/nominal refusal) where do you see TWEoS!Marinette falling in that spectrum? or is she a secret fourth thing (or all three)?
I personally see her as more aligned with nominal refusal (insofar as she is enabled to be a superhero, but that comes with acting in particular feminine ways/submitting to particular feminine expectations especially re: her dating Luka), but I can also see the argument for acceptance (given that Tikki is masterminding the whole thing, and Tikki is a conduit for certain fanon expectations that may skew misogynistic). maybe less emulation overall, but, hey, she called Adrien a bishie lol
That's such a good point to bring up... (Also I want to just take an aside and thank you for bringing that up yaaaaay I love getting the opportunity to engage with this theme of TWEoS!)
The thing with most of the girls in Adrien's general bracket is that they're usually a lot more nebulous as to what camp they fall into: They're not "women" yet, after all, so they haven't solidified what category they'll take on. For Kagami in particular, she'll unfortunately have a coming-of-age moment orchestrated her mother right before The Diamond Ball, but the rest of them could still be considered as struggling.
I said this ^^ a while ago while explaining the concept to a friend, but if I had to fit anyone into categories, Marinette is currently closest to an Emilie, and Kagami and Chloe are closest to a Tomoe. Claudia, on the other hand, will eventually show very clearly that she is none of these, and that's important. Of course she doesn't fit into any of these categories. She's never played by any of the rules! That's so important to her character.Â
Back on Marinette being closest to an Emilie (at least in my intention, I think you're right that as far as Lucky Lucky Ladybug is concerned her behavior can come off as Tomoe-esque), I tend to default to describing any instances of white associated with Marinette as "lily-white", and that's because of Emilie. This is because the white lily is a symbol of the Virgin Mary which I have in the back of my head as, like, a "connecting motif" between the two.
This is from a scene that might be buried in that old Ao3 Anthology fic, but Marinette trying to emulate Emilie in particular was something I played with a bit:Â
Unable to focus on what he was supposed to, Adrien instead noticed that Marinette was wearing that same familiar perfume again. It was the re-release of Aphrodite; A scent from Gabriel that his mother walked, talked, and nearly breathed advertisements for during the media's coverage of his parents' engagement. Old collections and prints in his father's collection always showed Emilie in blush pink silks and flower petals, and the most sensational was the one where his mother had her lips pursed into a deep red cherry, as the key ingredient was said to be "cherry hearts". Anybody with half a brain knew that cherries had a pit, and that they weren't exactly aromatic... but Adrien's mother could've sold the masses their own shit at the height of her popularity. Whether or not cherry hearts existed wasn't a concern anybody but Adrien had.
Of course, it's a whole thing that illocution and perlocution aren't the same, so my intentions and what the readers take away don't always line up all the time. You're right that me presenting her as hyperfeminine for male approval does not inherently make her an Emilie, but... If I can be completely honest, I think that execution gap is kind of cool so I'm not super broken up about it? If that makes sense? She is still, in some sense, sticking to her "roles" by pining after Adrien, but she's not cognizant of that.
Ugh, but then if I look back in TWEoS there's so many tiny pieces here and there where we can compare Emilie's "agency" through modeling to Marinette's superhero work.... Gabriel once specializing in power suits when Emilie was at the height of her career, Emilie's own goals of fame....
Ămilie tucked herself close to Gabriel as the paparazzi swarmed them the moment they exited the building. The sparkling explosion of cameras was like watching the sun hit ocean waves, a million little flashes of white light out over an expanse that never seemed to endâExcept Ămilie was in the water, in the light, constantly drinking in the eyes and the watching and the clamoring for her... Gabriel would do the dirty work, Gabriel would put in the hours. Ămilie would be made famous. (Show Business)
Wrapped around her torso like a book jacket was a scarlet corduroy blazer (double breasted, black buttons), the fabricâs wale catching a hint of diffused afternoon light from the window and weakening its color with the subtlest wash of a sterile, celestine blue. It was an offshoot of an old jacket his father had made in the late 80s: The power suits House Gabriel had exploded in popularly with, later pulled back into more demure ideals. Slimmer tailoring on the waist, brighter colors and smooth contours. What gave the alterations away were the seams in the shouldersâShoulder pads had been taken out to fit a sloping shoulder and a quieter mien. (TWEoS Part 2 Chapter 8)
Man, does this shit get complicated. You really have to appreciate just how dense TWEoS is for analysis, I don't think you can say that about fanfics very often. my pretentious lit student swag â¤ď¸
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