Problematic because: "SPOILERS: Some people have a problem with the fact that she kidnapped the MC. She also poisoned children. The kids woke up and most of them were perfectly physically fine, but some people still say it's unforgivable."
Propaganda: "SHE'S SO INTERESTING. She truly played a long game. She did a lot of gambits and they just WORKED. What do you mean you didn't even know if your mom would try to kill you but still put the gun in her hand? What do you mean you scratched the crown prince not just to intentionally seal your fate but to honor the trauma bond you had with your abusive mother? What do you mean you saved your sister? What do you mean you made the crown prince promise to not hurt the kids since they technically already died by your hand? Girl pops abortifacients like they're candy so she won't get pregnant and to avoid being used as a pawn even more. She's a master of disguise just cause most people don't pay attention. Plus, she's maomao's girlfriend. No one is doing it like her. Character of all time."
Problematic because: "his whole philosophy is basically, “i don’t kill people, i just kidnap them, drug them, put them in impossible trauma machines, and let the timer do the rest.” he genuinely insists he isn’t a murderer because his victims technically have choices, but the choices are often so extreme that the distinction is mostly there to make him feel morally superior. the first film alone has gordon and adam chained in a bathroom, zep forced into holding gordon’s family hostage, and a whole setup where john is lying on the floor listening to everything like the world’s most committed theatre director. his “i have never killed anyone” logic is one of the biggest hypocrite flags in the franchise. he recruits amanda, hoffman, gordon, and others into the wider jigsaw machinery, keeps setting up games even while dying, and repeatedly drags people adjacent to his targets into danger. in saw 2, the nerve gas house includes several people eric matthews framed, but also eric’s son daniel, who’s used as leverage against him. in saw 3, lynn denlon is forced to keep john alive while her husband jeff goes through his own test, and their daughter corbett is kidnapped as part of john’s final contingency. even when his anger is aimed at genuinely awful people, he keeps involving families, witnesses, addicts, patients, cops, apprentices, and anyone useful enough to become part of the lesson."
Propaganda: 1. "john kramer is awful and i love him. cancer patient, grieving almost-father, engineering genius, moral hypocrite, escape room designer from hell. says he doesn’t kill people while creating the most murder-adjacent situations imaginable. absolutely ridiculous man. top-tier horror villain."
2. "The best John Kramer scenes are the ones where you can see both sides at once. He can be calm, patient, almost gentle with someone like Amanda, and then you remember his idea of helping Amanda was putting her in a device that could kill her unless she completed the test. He can talk about cherishing life and then build a game where someone’s family member becomes collateral. He can despise Hoffman and Amanda making unwinnable traps, while completely missing that his own “winnable” traps are already monstrous. I don’t want John redeemed. I don’t even want him fully explained. I like him because he’s a horror villain with a worldview strong enough to argue about and cracked enough that every argument eventually comes back to, “Sir, you are still kidnapping people.”"
3. "He’s so smol though 🥺 He doesn’t technically actually kill people… They have the option to complete the test and get out… He actually stops his apprentice Amanda in Saw 3 because she was making impossible tests that didn’t give the victims the opportunity to lice! So, he’s basically a saint!! He only traps people he thinks genuinely aren’t appreciating their lives or have done bad things— like, people who were scamming cancer patients in Saw 10! Did I mention he has cancer?? Really, he’s the victim in all this… 🥺"
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