rant page

This isn't about you actually starting an intellectual discussion on cencorship or how fiction effects reality-which flash news it doesn't- this is you causing a moral media panic and acting morally righteous while knowing nothing.

Kinks are more complicated than 'morality =no kink'. Humans are more complicated than that. You're trying to put people into boxes that don't fit.

It's always outrage when it's sexual. There is no outrage for writing murder/violence. Why?

If you read something that contains anything like rape, incest, ect...and you immediately think it's ok or normal, I fear you need an evaluation.

And since people keep talking about psychological problems if you read such things, i am here to inform you, that psychologists themselves encourage interaction with such writing, especially as a means of coping or exploring new kinks.

You are reading on a site made by a winscest shipper, specifically made AGAINST cencorship.

The points you make are the same points that you make are the same ones the anti-gay puritains made.

You may not be old enough to remember, but i certainly do, when entire platforms got purged of any sexual or slightly nsfw content, taking anything LGBTQ+ with it, because it was deemed inappropriate.

Fiction, like the one that you're so strongly against, are NECESSARY for human development. Exploring such dynamics is IMPORTANT and ENCOURAGED because it is practiced in a safe and regulated environment. Exploring such relationships is also important, because it might show an abused person, who doesn't know they're being abused, that something is wrong.

You are not morally better simply because you heard something on tiktok, got mad about it, and never did any research on it. In fact, that makes you worse.

If you want an actual discussion about cencorship and how such fiction could effect reality, I'll gladly hear it. But that's not what you're looking for.

Every argument you have is based on irational fear and anger that someone planted in you. Which is human, but not logical.

If we start censoring one type of writing, we'll censor everything we don't like.

‘Don’t like don’t read has been a rule before you were even born’ okay, valid. Don’t like don’t read, it was never don’t like don’t criticize. If people have the right to come on here and write sexually explicit material that involves, rape, incest, sexual violence or age play people are gonna question it. Don’t be surprised.

My words were harsh, I shouldn’t have tried to put people in boxes. I apologizes to people who were offended or uncomfortable by this. I’ll make sure to edit the post so no one can come across it and feel offended but it’s in writing HERE what I had said. I take full responsibility.

‘Anti-gay puritans made these points once before’ First of all, puritans were anti-everything that wasn’t in their small ass circle. I fear calling us puritans is just shoving people who are rightfully looking at the writing people are making that contains topics that ARE harmful and clearly not put there with any positive intent in a box they ALSO don’t wanna be in. People that view these things as wrong don’t see sex as something that’s sacred or some shit, they see the things your writing just aren’t kinks.

‘Platforms were purged of any sexual and lgbtq content’ Valid argument, can’t argue.

‘It’s important to have this in a safe and regulated environment and might help people who don’t know their being abused that they are being abused’ you lost me right here. If people go on the INTERNET and see people fetishizing and jerking off to material of extreme abuse you think just because they get a bad feeling about it there gonna realize it’s bad? That’s not how it works, maybe your right, maybe they’ll realize it’s bad OR maybe they’ll think it’s normal because other people think it is! Other people fetishize it and think it’s cool so isn’t it okay? Isn’t it okay to act out in real life? The answers no.

I remember when I was younger I was being heavily emotionally abused by both of my parents, when I came online to read fanfiction i stumbled across so many fanfics with heavy emotional abuse in them and couldn’t tell it was wrong. I come back to them and question why l didn’t see the clear themes the author was trying to put down. So I’m pretty sure people coming on here, especially if their young aren’t going to understand.

Also if the argument that we shouldn’t be having to monitoring young people comes up I’m gonna roll my fucking eyes, yea, we have the MDNI perfect! But I fear young people have literally held fandoms on their backs for DECADES, to push them out of spaces with content and appreciation for fandoms would be ridiculous.

Also I’m confused but how is self censorship unhealthy? This is a genuine question I’m not mocking you.

Also the argument that stuff like this has built fandoms, like the ao3 author was a wincest shipper is not admirable. As much as you guys use that argument and think it’s strong it’s not, just because something was built on something does not mean continually having that content in this day and age is okay. I fear with that argument we have very much lost the plot. Also ao3 is a war-house, nice app but it’s a safe haven for pedophiles and incest lovers. That’s why you see so many people on the internet giving it the side eye.

This will be longer, so forgive me for being a yapper. I'm going to try to go through this fast and effectively, so it might be an essay.

First, which I think is important, is defining the words we're using, since words have power.

A kink has a few definitions that are important to this:

It is a trait or characteristic in a person's mind, personality, or behaviour regarded as unconventional, eccentric, irrational, or not normal.

A sexual desire or practice regarded as unusual or unconventional.

As a mass noun. Sexual desires or practices are regarded as unusual or unconventional.

A person whose sexual desires or practices are regarded as unusual or unconventional. Also (occasionally) more generally: a person regarded as eccentric, esp. in dress or manner. Sometimes disparaging.

A fetish is “a form of sexual behaviour or desire that is stimulated or gratified by a particular inanimate object (such as shoes, rubber, etc.), or by a part of the body (such as feet, hair, etc.) or an activity not ordinarily regarded as sexual.”

Rape is “originally and chiefly: the act or crime, committed by a man, of forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse with him without her consent, esp. by means of threats or violence. In later use more generally: the act of forced, non-consenting, or illegal sexual intercourse with another person; sexual violation or assault.”

There is also this definition which is less relevant, but I think it’s still important to mention: “The act of carrying off a person by force; esp. the abduction of a woman, usually for the purpose of sexual violation. Also figurative. Now archaic.”

Incest is “the crime of sexual intercourse or cohabitation between persons related within the degrees within which marriage is prohibited; sexual commerce of near kindred.”

Now, it gets tricky since the above definitions are from Exford Dictionary itself, which doesn’t provide a definition for ‘sexual violence’ itself, so bear with me. Violence is classified as: “The deliberate exercise of physical force against a person, property, etc.; physically violent behaviour or treatment; (Law) the unlawful exercise of physical force, intimidation by the exhibition of such force. Formerly also: †the abuse of power or authority to persecute or oppress (obsolete).”

or

“An instance or case of this: a violent or damaging act; a physical assault.”

‘Sexual’ is an adjective, relating to this, and its definition would be “Relating to, tending towards, or involving sexual intercourse, or other forms of intimate physical contact.”

So we can assume that the definition of sexual violence would be “The deliberate exercise of physical force against a person, for the desire of sexual gratification."

If you were to ask Google about age play, this is the definition you would get: “Ageplay or age play is a form of roleplay in which one or more individuals acts or treats another as if they are a different age. The term may describe a variety of roleplaying that involves a difference in age; in practice, however, ageplay usually involves one or more adults acting as young children. Ageplay generally focuses on the age aspect and its involvement in the roleplay, such as highlighting youthfulness, immaturity, or the taboo nature of one's age. Ageplay may include sexual interactions, but not necessarily.”

Which isn’t far off from the truth, but is very insubstantial as a definition. In truth, age play is something people keep engaging in without even realising it and simply brush over. It is a kink mostly revolved around trust and control - or lack of it. I’m sure you or someone you know has at least jokingly said ‘daddy’ or ‘mommy’ or something similar to a person they find attractive. That is ageplay.

Now, what people refer to as ‘rape kink’ is actually a 'consensual-non-consensual' kink, which is mostly revolved around, once again, trusting your partner and giving up control. It is done in a controlled environment between two consenting adults and heavily regulated with rules. It is used by either survivors of said crime to cope or ‘take back’ the control that was taken from them, or simply a couple who enjoys power play and is experimenting with their sexuality. Which is, as mentioned before, encouraged by psychologists and specialists in the field. It is FAUX ‘rape’ if you must call it that, but it is not real and dumbing it down to ‘rape play’ is harmful for such a nuanced thing. Human psychology is complex and the pleasure that is derived from such acts is hard to understand and explain, but the baseline is “if something brings a person pleasure they will chase it." Which is, unfortunately, dumbing it down, but i can’t really write a dissertation on this here.

There is absolutely no doubt that people will judge kinks; it is in the definition of the word. It is an unconventional thing even in smaller circles including AO3, believe it or not.

That being said, incest (usually faux incest is what people think of when reading/writing such things), rape, and age play (which go hand in hand with power play) are some of the most popular kinks out there—there is even a category for such things! Does that mean people will go out of their way to engage with a REAL person in real life in such a way? No. Of course not. A kink is simply a sexual desire and usually doesn’t go further than a dirty thought. In fact, I have an example: Something that is common with OCD and different mental illnesses is intrusive thoughts, which are unwanted thoughts that disgust a person and actively go against their moral code and ethics. One of the most common ones is POCD [Pedophile-Themed Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder] and usually presents itself in pedophilic thoughts. There’s something similar with incest and rape and so on when it comes to intrusive thoughts. That doesn’t mean the person is a pedophile; it simply means that their brains put these thoughts into their head against their will, and guilt and disgust follow.

Now—humans are complex, but not complicated, if that makes sense. Our brains are specifically wired to, and pardon my language, eat, shit, sleep, and breed.

Any thought, insinuation, or even thought of sex will make your body react to it with arousal. It’s why orgasms are so common with sexual assault—despite them having NOTHING to do with pleasure. But I think that’s a little complex even for me, a complete idiot compared to some, to explain deeper. Calling you a puritan (you as in the group) is a factual statement, not meant as an insult. Historically, they were members of the Protestant church during Elizabeth I reign, that sought to reform the practices they deemed ‘wrong’. Later, it developed into what we now consider one of these two:

“A member of any religious group that advocates or aspires to a special purity of doctrine or practice.”

“Chiefly disparaging. A person who practices or who is characterized by extreme strictness or austerity in religion, morals, etc.”

I have not meant it in a degrading way, and for my oversight, I apologize and take the responsibility. Now, I will take into account that you are more than likely a child, as simply warned: the rhetoric that you are using, Nazis in the 1930s have been using when burning LGBTQ+ history, and they are still doing so. As an adult (I think) in this conversation, it is my job to discourage this and ask that you understand that censorship of any kind in fiction should not be tolerated or engaged with due to it being a slippery slope down the fascist pipeline. I used to actually hold similar views to yours and frequently catch myself slipping from time to time, which is expected. I am not a political scientist, but I am a soon-to-be librarian, and it is against my code of ethics and against my job to encourage such thinking. In fact, it is in my job description that I must correct infactual and wrong statements and bring forth the truth.

As I've said, kinks exist, and they’re going to be gross and disgusting, and people will keep seeing them as that until the end of time. It is normal. You might think that this is getting normalised, but I have to disagree. Speak to anyone about such topics, and they will be against it, obviously. One of the things that I heard someone recommend is the 'bus driver test.' If you say it to the bus driver, will he look at you like you fell from Mars? Would you speak about this to the bus driver without embarrassment? If no, then maybe this problem is extremely niche and not really something people should worry about. I think if we have to worry about anything, it should be that kids are in 18+ spaces and the adults who encourage it, plus the rise of fascism—especially in the younger demographic.

And with that I’ll jump to the next point! I am sorry for what you went through, but unfortunately for you, you are on Tumblr—everyone here was abused—that's why we’re here /hj [I’m really sorry that you had to go through that]. But in all sincerity, a fetish is essentially a synonym for a kink, give or take, and people who fetishise such content will exist. Restricting it will make it worse; this is a fact. It is why we don’t ban abortions [at least we didn't]; people want what they can’t have, and if you restrict the distribution of such content, it will bleed into the real world instead of staying fictional. While I sympathise and understand the points you’re making, you must realise that the same arguments have been made with violent video games causing crimes—which isn’t true and has been disproven.

As another victim of child abuse and going through grooming and rape, I feel that I should have my voice if we are sharing opinions. In my opinion, and as far as I've seen of other victims too, comparing a fictional thing to a real-world crime is not only downplaying the crime but is also extremely disrespectful to the survivors. Comparing such an intimate violation of privacy and one’s self to something written on a paper that will not affect anyone feels like we are putting those two on the same level of crime, which they are not.

This ties onto the censorship point from earlier, but doesn’t everything. If we restrict one form of media, be it due to our morality (which is subjective) and treat it as law, the next thing they will come for will be the marginalized communities. They have done this; they are currently doing this. [Think of twerking, which wasn’t sexual to begin with, is now seen as sexual to degrade black women.] If nothing else from here sticks, i at least hope this will: When they come for one of us, they will come for all of us. And if you think that you aren’t on the chopping block, you need to reconsider the people that are agreeing with you, and whether you want their agreement. Now young people and media is something I consider myself very knowledgeable on! And I will have to disagree with you slightly and agree! Young people SHOULD be monitored. By their PARENTS. The UK has implemented a law that is currently not working out for them, just to ‘save kids’ as they always preach. It is so bad that people have gathered a petition in less than a week! Which is impressive for the UK. Here’s where we disagree. Young people haven’t been the backbone of fandoms. EVER. That is a false statement that I have also held until recently. This is easily disputed by looking back not even a century ago, at my favorite franchise nonetheless! Star Trek! Which was upheld and watched primarily by older people! They had zines and wrote fanfics and loved and nurtured the fandom so that one day it may pass onto the next generation! The franchise has been so successful [mostly due to sexual themes] that it is on par with Pokémon of all things! Gen Z starts in the mid-90s and ends in the 2010s. The elders held the internet going before we were even learning how to read, and then they passed it onto us to shape to our will. The people who built these spaces are still alive and still here and actively creating and fighting against the very thing we’re arguing about. The elders who are agreeing with you, and this will sound ridiculous to you, are the ones you should stay far away from. Not only are they dangerous for your development, as they are speaking with someone much younger than them, but they are actively encouraging such thinking. The point is, the fandoms were never for children, and there is a clear-cut line that you will have to cross to go into NSFW spaces to even see such content, but the fandoms that are considered ‘for children’ are also filled with adults. After all, they used to be kids too—hell, I still engage with my kid fandoms! It’s healthy and normal to hold onto such a developmental part of ourselves as we grow.

Kinktober, in specific, is an 18+ event, and it is not the job nor the fault of the artists to regulate random children on the internet! It is on the parent that decided their child gets access to such things. If they cannot respect basic boundaries such as MDNI, i fear we have a bigger problem than kids wanting to be adults. [which is stupid; being an adult sucks!]

I detest this argument against our roots, both as an ex-rage baiter on the Wincest side of the argument of old Tumblr and as a historical nerd! The argument is important - it is a similar argument I have seen made against transmen lesbians which is for another time - and it is ridiculous to push it aside. It is history, however insignificant it might seem. It is one of the backbones of fandoms and fanfics and fanarts. Before the archive, we had nowhere to put our work on without fear of it getting deleted or reported or the archive simply disappearing. The biggest example is FanFiction.net which purged all and every work that contained LGBTQ+ works and smut because they considered it sexual, Wattpad too. [LiveJournal for the dying sites]

It is important to understand that ao3 is an ARCHIVE and the works that are kept there are kept there forever unless the author deletes them. It is supposed to keep the history of fandoms, old and new, and keep it alive. Its incredible team of lawyers and the never-backing support of the lovely volunteers bring the dream alive! Keep us from getting sued for our love of the series/book/game/etc. and fix everything for nothing just to bring those works to you! We do not have the right to spit on that when they do their job. If you prefer to have anything censored, ao3 isn’t for you. There have been ao3 ripoffs and they failed for that very reason. If you want to make rules for this, it will not go well; it never does. That is why ao3 has tags on the right which are extremely helpful and you can even block tags/creators! That is as far as I will go into that. Now as for the question on self-censorship being harmful, it again ties onto normal censorship but slightly…deeper dwelling? if that makes sense? The human brain is constantly growing, learning, evolving. The way we learn empathy is by reading; there are studies that I will gladly forward to anyone interested! Now, my professor might say self-censorship can be good in regulated amounts, but anything is harmful/helpful based on the amount. Parents can censor their child's information intake, which is something I have an issue with as a soon-to-be librarian, but it’s more complicated.

When you keep to only one side/theme of the internet/life, it creates an echo chamber and a filter bubble, where a person is stuck inside this one place with no other opinions to go in or out. If you manage to get yourself into one of these, I highly suggest not acknowledging your phone for the next month—the slip n’ slide down to fascism is quick and you barely notice until it is too late. It’s how those people on 4Chan and Reddit end up the way they do. They lock themselves into these spaces, refusing other views, and eventually they are the bottom feeders of society, or at least they used to be until recently. Self-censoring is similar. Our brains need a variety of different genres to broaden our knowledge. Does this mean you should go out of your way and read something that makes you uncomfortable? NO! Absolutely not! Especially if you are a MINOR! It will do more harm than good. It’s why Game of Thrones isn’t recommended to anyone below 16 to watch or read. Those types of media should be consumed in a regulated environment, such as with a parent who will explain things as it goes and afterwards have a discussion about it. Self-censoring, according to one of my professors, can also be good! It keeps us from engaging with media we find uncomfortable or gross and keeps our brains from melting into this pot of trauma and goo where you become desensitized to such things. But too much or too little of anything will do that! I suggest fighting that with avid reading—from classics to scientific papers and even your schoolbooks! I hope I managed to answer at least some of the concerns and ease the minds of a few. I’m not a professional, but I have the privilege of accessing the professional world and I will help where I can.

If there are no more questions—class dismissed! [I always wanted to say that]

SOURCES THAT I GOT RECOMMENDED BY COLLEAGUES [in the psyc devision]:

I genuinely learned a lot of internet lore lol, thanks. I see things differently now! Of rouse I’m still against those subjects but i definitely see where your coming from. I’ll be editing some of my posts and learn from this experience

This isn't about you actually starting an intellectual discussion on cencorship or how fiction effects reality-which flash news it doesn't- this is you causing a moral media panic and acting morally righteous while knowing nothing.

Kinks are more complicated than 'morality =no kink'. Humans are more complicated than that. You're trying to put people into boxes that don't fit.

It's always outrage when it's sexual. There is no outrage for writing murder/violence. Why?

If you read something that contains anything like rape, incest, ect...and you immediately think it's ok or normal, I fear you need an evaluation.

And since people keep talking about psychological problems if you read such things, i am here to inform you, that psychologists themselves encourage interaction with such writing, especially as a means of coping or exploring new kinks.

You are reading on a site made by a winscest shipper, specifically made AGAINST cencorship.

The points you make are the same points that you make are the same ones the anti-gay puritains made.

You may not be old enough to remember, but i certainly do, when entire platforms got purged of any sexual or slightly nsfw content, taking anything LGBTQ+ with it, because it was deemed inappropriate.

Fiction, like the one that you're so strongly against, are NECESSARY for human development. Exploring such dynamics is IMPORTANT and ENCOURAGED because it is practiced in a safe and regulated environment. Exploring such relationships is also important, because it might show an abused person, who doesn't know they're being abused, that something is wrong.

You are not morally better simply because you heard something on tiktok, got mad about it, and never did any research on it. In fact, that makes you worse.

If you want an actual discussion about cencorship and how such fiction could effect reality, I'll gladly hear it. But that's not what you're looking for.

Every argument you have is based on irational fear and anger that someone planted in you. Which is human, but not logical.

If we start censoring one type of writing, we'll censor everything we don't like.

‘Don’t like don’t read has been a rule before you were even born’ okay, valid. Don’t like don’t read, it was never don’t like don’t criticize. If people have the right to come on here and write sexually explicit material that involves, rape, incest, sexual violence or age play people are gonna question it. Don’t be surprised.

My words were harsh, I shouldn’t have tried to put people in boxes. I apologizes to people who were offended or uncomfortable by this. I’ll make sure to edit the post so no one can come across it and feel offended but it’s in writing HERE what I had said. I take full responsibility.

‘Anti-gay puritans made these points once before’ First of all, puritans were anti-everything that wasn’t in their small ass circle. I fear calling us puritans is just shoving people who are rightfully looking at the writing people are making that contains topics that ARE harmful and clearly not put there with any positive intent in a box they ALSO don’t wanna be in. People that view these things as wrong don’t see sex as something that’s sacred or some shit, they see the things your writing just aren’t kinks.

‘Platforms were purged of any sexual and lgbtq content’ Valid argument, can’t argue.

‘It’s important to have this in a safe and regulated environment and might help people who don’t know their being abused that they are being abused’ you lost me right here. If people go on the INTERNET and see people fetishizing and jerking off to material of extreme abuse you think just because they get a bad feeling about it there gonna realize it’s bad? That’s not how it works, maybe your right, maybe they’ll realize it’s bad OR maybe they’ll think it’s normal because other people think it is! Other people fetishize it and think it’s cool so isn’t it okay? Isn’t it okay to act out in real life? The answers no.

I remember when I was younger I was being heavily emotionally abused by both of my parents, when I came online to read fanfiction i stumbled across so many fanfics with heavy emotional abuse in them and couldn’t tell it was wrong. I come back to them and question why l didn’t see the clear themes the author was trying to put down. So I’m pretty sure people coming on here, especially if their young aren’t going to understand.

Also if the argument that we shouldn’t be having to monitoring young people comes up I’m gonna roll my fucking eyes, yea, we have the MDNI perfect! But I fear young people have literally held fandoms on their backs for DECADES, to push them out of spaces with content and appreciation for fandoms would be ridiculous.

Also I’m confused but how is self censorship unhealthy? This is a genuine question I’m not mocking you.

Also the argument that stuff like this has built fandoms, like the ao3 author was a wincest shipper is not admirable. As much as you guys use that argument and think it’s strong it’s not, just because something was built on something does not mean continually having that content in this day and age is okay. I fear with that argument we have very much lost the plot. Also ao3 is a war-house, nice app but it’s a safe haven for pedophiles and incest lovers. That’s why you see so many people on the internet giving it the side eye.