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ok so this is the final art piece from the twoiaf anniversary thing and this one depicts summerhall. from the characters seen in this art I’m guessing it takes place during Rhaegar and Lyanna’s journey to the tower of joy.
here we see Rhaegar by the fire playing his harp and presumably Arthur Dayne next to him.
here we have Lyanna wearing her crown of winter roses but here’s the part where things get interesting because it looks like the person standing next to Lyanna
is Ashara Dayne! which begs the question: was Ashara in on this plan with her brother? did she become a friend of Lyanna? was the loss of Lyanna as well as that of her brother and baby what made her kill her self?
The fact that Daenerys’ novella “blood of the dragon” was published in July 1996 and AGOT was published August 1996 which means she won GRRM a Hugo Award, the most prestigious literary award in science fiction and fantasy, before ASOIAF was an existing series.. yeah def don’t compare your flop faves to her.
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What I, an "extremely biased" targ stan, think about the function of Robert's Rebellion in the narrative and themes of asoiaf :
The Aerys regime was bound to be overthrown as a result of his paranoia and cruelty. Abuse of power leads to retribution.
The Lannisters were traitors then and continue to be traitors in the present timeline.
The current regime (the one that overturned the previous Aerys regime and is supposedly "better" because of that) is just as rotten as the previous one because it was founded on such cruelty.
The sack of KL (the peak of the Rebellion and the event that terminated the war) materializes Ned's valid guilt and remorse for associating himself with said regime, feelings that haunted him throughout his whole life and are pivotal in his arc in the present timeline.
The Starks, the Baratheons and the Lannisters' alliance that ended the Targaryen regime was meant to go to shit because it was founded on extreme cruelty and vileness. It was rotten from the start. Because of this, all of these houses were meant to start devouring each other, which is precisely what happens in the present timeline. Ned, Robert and Tywin each died disgraced and dishonored.
Foreshadowing of Dany and Jon's return that will hopefully break this rotten vicious power dynamic.
The sack of KL triggers Jaime's existential crisis for being an enabler of the new rotten regime. It showcases the vanity and contradictions of the strict moral code of knights and the impossibility of choice.
The sack of KL gives us context for House Martell's desire for revenge *against the Lannisters* in the present timeline.
Enlightened "neutral" faction of the fanbase that gets *The Themes*: Robert's Rebellion is about how a Machiavellian Pedophile wishing to get his dick wet for eugenic experiments destroyed his entire family and the realm + grrm subverting the prophecy trope aka prophecies are fake because they kill people delirium + Elia died because her aforementioned Machiavellian Pedophile husband took the Kingsguard with him to protect his side bitch/sex slave (depends) leaving her All Alone in the Sahara desert + targnation hates POC/Dead ladies club delirium/patriarchy destroys little girls/Lyanna is remembered only for her beauty uwu
Why are you treating Targaryen as colonizers when current Westerosi descend from the First Men and Andals?
First Men were actual invaders who slaughtered the real natives of Westeros, the Children of the Forest, cut down their sacred trees and then stole a big part of their lands. They made a pact with them later and accepted their gods but that still doesn't excuse them. Your beloved House Stark descends from them, ruling over the North for thousands of years after continuous war and conquest of other First Men houses and territories.
(And if we follow GoT lore, First Men's acts of genocide and colonization were literally the reason White Walkers were created. So they're fully responsible for the Long Night and possible doom of the whole world in at least GoT's show continuity)
Then you have the Andals, who also invaded and kept killing the Children -as well as First Men so colonizers killing colonizers- and stealing their lands imposing the Faith of the Seven over the Old Gods.
Westeros was a land stolen by colonizers who were in constant war with each other long before the Targaryen arrived. None of them had right to rule by your definition.
Targaryen came and conquered them, unified the kingdoms into the Seven Kingdoms and then mostly allowed them to go on with their traditions and customs as long as they left them with their own. Jaehaerys and Alysanne just put an end to some of the worst.
Targaryen didn't impose their religion or beliefs over them. If anything Westerosi were the ones trying to impose House Targaryen with their traditions and trying to control their House lol
Alicent agreed to sacrifice Aegon during her 1-1 with Rhaeneyra. Does that mean we won't get to see the Gold Cloaks' loyalty towards Daemon or Rhaeneyra's kindness towards Alicent and Helaena when the Blacks take over King's Landing?
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Okay. So this is something that is just irritating as hell right now. Currently some Jon fans (and I am one myself too--to some extent-- so this is not coming from a Jon hater) are really unhappy that the leaks show that Daemon already saw centuries ago that Dany will be the The Prince that was Promised. They are alleging that this is somehow a retcon of the original. To them, here is my question: Original what? Show or Book?
In the show, there is no clear Prince that was Promised. The last time the Prophecy is mentioned is in 7x02 when it is clarified that it is nuetral with respect to gender. It never shows up in season 8. Nor do the events of season 8 give us any further clue on the prophecy. Every plan made by Jon and Dany failed to stop the Night King in 8x03. By the end of the episode both Jon and Dany are in hopeless situations. Only the surprise attack by Arya (of all people) defeated the Night King after he had, by all rights, won. Arya, of course, if we follow the show's narrative was prepared by the Lord of Light (and knew nothing about any of this) and had nothing to do with Jon and Dany. Not even the show claimed that Arya was the Prince that was promised.
In the books, there is no case for claiming that this is a retcon in any way. In fact, by the end of Book 5 (the last one so far released), Dany is the most obvious candidate for the position. We have the red priests proclaiming it (btw they are also proclaiming it in the show, recall Kinvara). Maester Aemon, who seems to have spent his whole life looking for the fulfilment of the prophecy and is an expert on it also identifies Dany. The signs are all there ('dragons from stone' etc.). Born amidst 'salt and smoke' (Dragonstone), 'bleeding star' (red comet) and so on.
So what gives?
I should also point something out that is essentially stated again and again as if it were established canon:
That Jon IS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, becasue he is THE SON OF ICE (Stark) AND FIRE (Targaryen). It seems that the ones who make this argument think that repeating it often enough and loudly, along with derisive dismissals of those who do not agree with them is sufficient to make it a canonical fact. However, none of this changes the fact that THIS IS AN UNCONFIRMED FAN THEORY.
I will be the last to deny that there is evidence poiting towards Jon as well. However, as of ADwD, Jon and Dany are the only plausible characters who can be TPtwP. To make either fit, some parts of the prophecy need to be interpreted metaphorically (with there being canonical support for such metaphorical interpretations, no less) while the others fit literally (for example, 'sword' has to be given a metaphorical interpretation for Dany, while she fulfils the part about awakening dragons from stone literally). If one of them is the one, it can hardly be called retcon.
If we take creator statements to be truthful, specifically that "Aegon called his dream the Song of Ice and Fire" came directly from Martin, then would that fan theory not already be essentially debunked? If it's just the in-universe name for Aegon's visions, then we're not looking for a specific person or event, and identifying Jon (or anyone else) as "the ice and fire" makes no actual sense.
I do not trust a single thing they say in this show. I can bet that the screenwriters have not read the source material properly.
There's something called the pact of ice and fire which is an important part of the events of the dance. How can any writer omit it? Did they not read the books or KiNdA fOrGoT?!!
The prophecy of the Prince that was Promised is known by the red priests of the lord of light. Which means it wasn't something exclusively passed down from Targaryen kings to heirs.
I also have a feeling that GRRM himself has retconned his original ideas based on the popularity of the show characters. He's a better writer than the hacks hired by HBO for sure but he too has succumbed to popular opinions and thinks that shocking events and "subverted expectations" like the execution of Ned Stark and Red Wedding are what his readers expect from him.
He probably had a different, more positive ending for Dany on his mind when he originally started writing and it clearly reflects in the treatment of her character and her chapters.
But after he subverts all expectations (and common sense), his book ending will quite likely be what we got at the end of s8. He will probably write it better but clearly he will have to retcon too many of his characters to reach that point. And that's why it's taking him so long to finish his work. He has written himself into a corner now and we would never find out who or what tptwp was supposed to be.
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I see some Green stans complaining how Alicent has gone soft and is possibly a traitor to her sons' cause.
Bitches, we've been lamenting it since day 1.
She was more Cersei Lannister than whatever the fuck this shitshow had been trying to make her! She was 18 when married Viserys and had lived at the court since the days of King Jaehaerys. She was 9 years older than Rhaenyra and is believed to have honey tapped Viserys even before Aemma's passing.
"Alicent was highly intelligent, literate and willful, but also scheming and firmly ambitious."
Long before the Dance started, she had divided the court into Greens and Blacks and pushed Rhaenyra far from the seat of power to Dragonstone.
Book spoilers :
After Rhaenyra took over King's Landing, she spared Alicent's life "for the sake of our father, who loved you once." Compare this to Alicent usurping her after Viserys died and later telling Rhaenyra, "only bastard blood has been spilled".
So while I can understand Greens' anger, rest assured, we are more enraged at the whitewashing of this self serving villain of the Dance of Dragons.
Calling all Aegon II fans who hate Book Dany for burning Mirri (for murdering her baby) and crucifying the slavers (for crucifying slave children) - how do you feel about Aegon's little light show?
Lastly King Aegon II turned his attention to the Shepherd. When brought before the Iron Throne for judgment, the prophet refused to repent his crimes or admit to treason, but thrust the stump of his missing hand at the king and told His Grace, “We shall meet in hell before this year is done,” the same words he had spoken to Borros Baratheon upon his capture. For that insolence, Aegon had the Shepherd’s tongue torn out with hot pincers, then condemned him and his “treasonous followers” to death by fire.
On the last day of the year, two hundred forty-one “barefoot lambs,” the Shepherd’s most fervid and devoted followers, were covered with pitch and chained to poles along the broad cobbled thoroughfare that ran eastward from Cobbler’s Square up to the Dragonpit. As the city’s septs rang their bells to signal the end of the old year and the coming of the new, King Aegon II proceeded along the street (thereafter known as Shepherd’s Way, rather than Hill Street as before) in his litter, whilst his knights rode to either side, setting their torches to the captive lambs to light his way. Thus did His Grace continue up the hill to the very top, where the Shepherd himself was bound amongst the heads of the five dragons. Supported by two of his Kingsguard, King Aegon rose from his cushions, tottered to the pole where the prophet had been chained, and set him aflame with his own hand.
Or what he did to Maester Gerardys for the crime of *checks notes* obeying his maesters vows and offering him medical treatment?
Aegon II lived the rest of his life in great pain…though to his honor, when Grand Maester Gerardys offered him milk of the poppy, he refused. “I shall not walk that road again,” he said. “Nor am I such a fool as to drink any potion you might prepare for me. You are my sister’s creature.”
At the king’s command, the chain that Princess Rhaenyra had torn from Grand Maester Orwyle’s neck and given to Gerardys was now used to hang him. He was not given the quick end of a hard fall and a broken neck, but rather a slow strangulation, kicking as he gasped for air. Thrice, when he was almost dead, Gerardys was let down and allowed to catch a breath, only to be hauled up again. After the third time, he was disemboweled and dangled before Sunfyre so the dragon might feast upon his legs and innards, but the king commanded that enough of the Grand Maester be saved so “he might greet my sweet sister on her return.”
They found him hanging from the battlements of the gatehouse beside Dragonstone’s steward, captain of the guard, master-at-arms…and the head and upper torso of Grand Maester Gerardys. Everything below his ribs was gone, and the Grand Maester’s entrails dangled down from within his torn belly like so many burned black snakes.
And perhaps you can compare Gerardys' fate to that of Tyland Lannister... whose fate is indeed very fucked up.
Though the Crown had been flush with gold upon the passing of King Viserys, Aegon II had seized the treasury along with the crown, and his master of coin, Tyland Lannister, had shipped off three-quarters of the late king’s wealth “for safekeeping.” King Aegon had spent every penny of the portion kept in King’s Landing, leaving only empty vaults for his half-sister when she took the city.
Queen Alicent was fettered at wrist and ankle with golden chains, though her stepdaughter spared her life “for the sake of our father, who loved you once.” Her own father was less fortunate. Ser Otto Hightower, who had served three kings as Hand, was the first traitor to be beheaded. Ironrod followed him to the block, still insisting that by law a king’s son must come before his daughter. Ser Tyland Lannister was given to the torturers instead, in hopes of recovering some of the Crown’s treasure.
Down in the black cells, Ser Perkin’s men even found King Aegon’s former master of coin, Ser Tyland Lannister, still alive…though Rhaenyra’s torturers had blinded him, pulled out his fingernails and toenails, cut off his ears, and relieved him of his manhood.
However consider that Tyland stealing and hiding the treasury led directly to Rhaenyra's downfall. The bankruptcy of the realm - and the taxes Lord Celtigar had to raise as a result - was disastrous to Rhaenyra's reign. Of course any monarch was going to order Tyland be interrogated. Had her interrogators succeeded in getting the information out of him, the tide of the dance would have changed completely. If if weren't for the gold, his fate would have been the same as Otto Hightower and Jasper Wylde (Ironrod).
And yes, you can pull out the 'both sides' argument. You can argue that in this fantasy-medieval world both sides commit war crimes - in a world where beheadings and hangings are normalised and committed by both sides, where torture and ripping out tongues is normalised and committed by both sides - can any side claim a moral high ground? But even considering ideas of moral relativism when discussing a fantasy-medieval world, what purpose did it serve to torture Maester Gerardys, other than mere sadism?
Blood and Cheese
And perhaps you can ask, well, what purpose did it serve to kill Prince Jaehaerys? And to psychologically torture Helaena in such a horrifically cruel way? Well, no purpose at all. No justifiable purpose anyway. But I maintain that Rhaenyra did not order it, or even know it was going to happen:
Her first act as queen was to declare Ser Otto Hightower and Queen Alicent traitors and rebels. “As for my half-brothers and my sweet sister, Helaena,” she announced, “they have been led astray by the counsel of evil men. Let them come to Dragonstone, bend the knee, and ask my forgiveness, and I shall gladly spare their lives and take them back into my heart, for they are of my own blood, and no man or woman is as accursed as the kinslayer.”
Word of Rhaenyra’s coronation reached the Red Keep the next day, to the great displeasure of Aegon II. “My half-sister and my uncle are guilty of high treason,” the young king declared. “I want them attainted, I want them arrested, and I want them dead.”
GRRM put these two announcements next to each other for a reason for starters - though this was before Luke's death...
On Dragonstone, Queen Rhaenyra collapsed when told of Luke’s death. Luke’s young brother Joffrey (Jace was still away on his mission north) swore a terrible oath of vengeance against Prince Aemond and Lord Borros. Only the intervention of the Sea Snake and Princess Rhaenys kept the boy from mounting his own dragon at once. (Mushroom would have us believe he played a part as well.) As the black council sat to consider how to strike back, a raven arrived from Harrenhal. “An eye for an eye, a son for a son,” Prince Daemon wrote. “Lucerys shall be avenged.”
Let it not be forgotten: in his youth, Daemon Targaryen had been the “Prince of the City,” his face and laugh familiar to every cutpurse, whore, and gambler in Flea Bottom. The prince still had friends in the low places of King’s Landing, and followers amongst the gold cloaks. Unbeknownst to King Aegon, the Hand, or the Queen Dowager, he had allies at court as well, even on the green council…and one other go-between, a special friend he trusted utterly, who knew the wine sinks and rat pits that festered in the shadow of the Red Keep as well as Daemon himself once had, and moved easily through the shadows of the city. To this pale stranger he reached out now, by secret ways, to set a terrible vengeance into motion.
Daemon, named the Rogue Prince for a reason, was acting independently of the Black Council - and of Rhaenyra. In fact, the Council itself is suggested to be acting independently of Rhaenyra:
The bird arrived as Rhaenyra and her blacks were mourning Ser Erryk and debating the proper response to “Aegon the Usurper’s” latest attack. Though shaken by this attempt on her life (or the lives of her sons), the queen was still reluctant to attack King’s Landing. Munkun (who, it must be remembered, wrote many years later) says this was because of her horror of kinslaying. Maegor the Cruel had slain his own nephew Aegon, and had been cursed thereafter, until he bled his life away upon his stolen throne. Septon Eustace claims Rhaenyra had “a mother’s heart” that made her reluctant to risk the lives of her remaining sons. Mushroom alone was present for these councils, however, and the fool insists that Rhaenyra was still so griefsick over the death of her son Lucerys that she absented herself from the war council, giving over her command to the Sea Snake and his wife, Princess Rhaenys.
This account is considered by Archmaester Gyldayn to be the most likely. Especially since it stands in contrast to her reaction to Jace's death, making it likely that beforehand she had been withdrawn in her grief.
Broken by the loss of one son, Rhaenyra Targaryen seemed to find new strength after the loss of a second. Jace’s death hardened her, burning away her fears, leaving only her anger and her hatred.
Still, assuming she wasn't responsible for Blood and Cheese, should she have executed Daemon for it? I suppose no more than Aegon should have executed Aemond for murdering Lucerys - a child and a messenger - rather than throwing him a congratulatory feast. Robb Stark would have done it. Robb Stark also paid dearly for it. And Daemon is both the father of two of her children and the rider of Caraxes in a war where every dragon counts, where the remainder of her children's lives are still at stake.
How many innocent ratcatchers did Aegon hang in revenge for Blood and Cheese?
Ok, well what about Nettles?
Obviously I am not here to defend Rhaenyra's treatment of Nettles - but I know TG like to raise it as an example of 'both sides are just as bad'.
On that note, I can compare Daemon's bloodless takeover of Harrenhal to Aemond beheading children. I can detail both Aemond and Daeron's war crimes in the riverlands, including allowing the mass rape of children. I can point out that the Greens also attempted to court Dalton Greyjoy, and remind you that their allies the Triarchy are guilty of their own fair share of kidnap and enslavement.
But lets keep this to comparing Rhaenyra's actions to Aegon's actions. First off, most of her councillors - aside from 2 - were urging her to suspect the remaining dragonseeds, were warning her of the threat of two more dragonriders turning Green, the threat this would pose to her surviving children. And she ultimately acted on the word of her master of whisperers, Mysaria. At a time when Rhaenyra is documented as being in a deteriorated mental state due to her grief at losing 4 children, and paranoia - a consideration that even Septon Eustace allows.
“Her Grace had been betrayed so often, by so many, that she was quick to believe the worst of any man,” Septon Eustace writes. “Treachery no longer had the power to surprise her. She had come to expect it, even from those she loved the most.”
Was Aegon also in a deteriorated mental state due to grief and paranoia when he executed the ratcatchers? Yes, I suppose - though they didn't have dragons or pose much of a threat. But was Aegon also in physical pain himself when he tortured and gruesomely murdered Maester Gerardys, or when he put on his little light show? Yes, I suppose that is a consideration - I'm sure Maester Gerardys forgave it. But Rhaenyra's paranoia and grief didn't compel her to order anything out of the ordinary in this fantasy medieval world - arrests, interrogations, beheadings. Aegon's treatment of the Shepherd and his followers, of the ratcatchers, of Maester Gerardys, is particularly sadistic and pointless.
I'll have to do a separate post to discuss Mushroom and Eustace and their motives, which are not as simple as one always tells the truth about Rhaenyra and one always lies - but it is worth noting that it is Eustace's account that insists Rhaenyra ordered Nettles be executed specifically out of jealousy, that calls Nettles a 'common thing with the stink of sorcery'. I am not saying there is no shred of truth to it, but it wouldn't be out of character for Eustace to depict events in the most misogynistic way possible (plus he wasn't in the room). This is the same guy who went 'who would fight for Rhaenyra now she's fat and ugly?', so it's not beyond him to cast her as a jealous bitch. Maybe it did go down as Eustace says (again, still considering Rhaenyra's mental state), or maybe Mysaria claimed to have proof of an actual plan to betray the Blacks, not just adultery?
It might be so. Yet Queen Rhaenyra did not act at once, but rather sent for Mysaria, the harlot and dancing girl who was her mistress of whisperers in all but name. With her skin as pale as milk, Lady Misery appeared before the council in a hooded robe of black velvet lined with blood-red silk, and stood with head bowed humbly as Her Grace asked whether she thought Ser Addam and Nettles might be planning to betray them. Then the White Worm raised her eyes and said in a soft voice, “The girl has already betrayed you, my queen. Even now she shares your husband’s bed, and soon enough she will have his bastard in her belly.” Then Queen Rhaenyra grew most wroth, Septon Eustace writes.
Eustace says Rhaenyra asked about both Addam and Nettles, but Mysaria is only quoted answering about Nettles. Which doesn't explain why Rhaenyra subsequently ordered Addam's arrest too. We don't have any alternative accounts to Eustace's, but then we could also consider Gyldayn's motives in compiling historical accounts the way he does (though that admittedly can lead us down many rabbit holes).
So maybe Rhaenyra was acting out of spiteful jealousy, or maybe paranoia and a deteriorated mental state, or maybe false evidence, or maybe some combination of the above. Either way, again compare to how Aegon treats Maester Gerardys. You can argue he does so out of paranoia, out of pain - but he could have simply had Gerardys arrested or executed. He didn't have to kill him the way he did. 'Both sides are bad' still leaves room for 'one side was worse', and each side was made up of more actors than just Aegon and Rhaenyra.
After all, who does Daemon ultimately lay the blame on?
The prince greeted me politely, but as he read I saw the joy go from his eyes, and a sadness descended upon him, like a weight too heavy to be borne. When the girl asked what was in the letter, he said, ‘A queen’s words, a whore’s work.’
We could likewise pin the blame on Alicent if you wish, for Aegon ordering the mutilation of a 10-year-old Aegon the Younger and a 13-year-old Baela.
“You fed his mother to your dragon,” she reminded her son. “The boy saw it all.”
The king turned to her desperately. “What would you have me do?”
“You have hostages,” the Queen Dowager replied. “Cut off one of the boy’s ears and send it to Lord Tully. Warn them he will lose another part for every mile they advance.”
“Yes,” Aegon II said. “Good. It shall be done.” He summoned Ser Alfred Broome, who had served him so well on Dragonstone. “Go and see to it, ser.” As the knight took his leave, the king turned to Corlys Velaryon. “Tell your bastard to fight bravely, my lord. If he fails me, if any of these Braavosi pass the Gullet, your precious Lady Baela shall lose some parts as well.”
Well, she didn't say anything about Baela, he just added another child to the mutilation list (if you replaced Aegon with Joffrey and Baela with Sansa, would TG still be salivating?). And Alicent wasn't around when Aegon chose this particularly violent and gruesome execution:
Rhaenyra Targaryen had time to raise her head toward the sky and shriek out one last curse upon her half-brother before Sunfyre’s jaws closed round her, tearing off her arm and shoulder.
Septon Eustace tells us that the golden dragon devoured the queen in six bites, leaving only her left leg below the shin “for the Stranger.” Elinda Massey, youngest and gentlest of Rhaenyra’s ladies-in-waiting, supposedly gouged out her own eyes at the sight, whilst the queen’s son Aegon the Younger watched in horror, unable to move.
"This was revenge for Blood and Cheese... Aegon would have assumed Rhaenyra ordered it..." Hey if I was picking a way to go, I'd take a slit throat over being eaten alive. One is a great deal quicker.
Is the psychological torture Aegon the Younger went through here justified by the psychological torture Helaena went through? Do I even care to entertain it? Do you want me to go all the way back to the psychological torture Rhaenyra went through over Lucerys while Aegon and Aemond were partying - how terrifying were his final moments, was his death mercifully quick, did he feel himself being eaten alive, was he swallowed whole, was he still alive when Vhagar digested him - she didn't have a body to bury, only the horrors of her imagination. (hey TG, replace Aemond and Vhagar with Ramsay and his hunting hounds).
Aegon the Elder at this point had also very recently just murdered Maester Gerardys in the most pointlessly gruesome and sadistic way. So you know what, I'm inclined to think he didn't have justice for Helaena in mind when he forced Aegon the Younger to watch. I think he's just like that.
While we can theoretically blame Daemon for Blood and Cheese, and Mysaria for Nettles, Aegon has no such deniability for the ratcatchers, for the Shepherd and his followers, for Maester Gerardys, for Rhaenyra, for Aegon the Younger and Baela. While we can see the high stakes behind the interrogation of Tyland Lannister (which could have changed the course of the entire war), what point did it serve to torture Maester Gerardys? And while we can make mitigating considerations for both Aegon and Rhaenyra's mental state, one is considerably more sadistic than the other.
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