Legalese

Sorry. Let me stop laughing at the absurdity of this before I can respond 🤣 😂

You clearly have no idea what abuse actually is and what does or doesn't constitute abuse.

"Wahhh its abuse because he doesn't use a training room".

By this line of reasoning every personal trainer who uses a town hall or open space to hold gym sessions with clients is an abuser. Especially if thier training regime is "outside the norm" 😆 🤣

You're an idiot. No really. You'd have to be an idiot to think everything the Jedi don't approve is abusive. I already explained certain groups undergo very difficult or rigorous training exercises.

Army Special forces, for example. Anakin doesn't force Ashoka against her will: she chooses to continue the training. Like people who want to go into Special Forces units voluntarily enlist on training programs to qualify.

And he was very right to give her specialist training after dozens of Padawans died because the Jedi threw them into combat with inadequate training. I know, it's very hard for a Mary Sue Kenobi worshipper like you to admit Anakin is right about anything but the entire point of those Episodes isn't "This training was bad and wrong" but to show "this training was good because it enabled Ashoka to survive"

It's the defence when your entire order is a religious minority with limited rights that is being forced to do something by the political and legal system that controls their lifelyhood and has already drafted them into a war

Oh good grief. You don't actually know what the Nuremberg Defense is do you? You don't actually know why it's called that and why it's not acceptable in any court of law.

"Just Following orders" was the defense used by literal Nazi soldiers to justify thier murder of prisoners and other war crimes after WW2.

The Jedi being a "minority" doesn't give them a free license to commit crimes any more than it gave those soldiers an excuse. In fact, most terrorist groups are minorities. That doesn't justify their atrocities against civilians.

The Jedi aren't being forced. You've already claimed they can leave. If someone orders you to commit a war crime, you don't obey them. You submit to any negative consequences of your actions, but you do not commit said crime.

We end the Prequels by seeing what can happen to the Jedi if they don't comply. They get killed, because they are a vulnerable minority.

If your choice is between commiting war crimes or death, you choose death. There's no two ways about this. "But waaaaaahhh the Jedi need to protect people". War Criminals aren't protecting people. Its not necessary to conmit war crimes to protect people.

Are you seriously accusing me of supporting fuckin slavery right now?

Yes.

While the Kaminoans say that the clones were made for the Jedi, they don't have the money and the republic senate discusses financing options to create more clones. The Senate owns the Clones. And the Jedi are also forced to be here - while their situation is no where near as bad as the clones, they were drafted into the war against their will. Did you read the post I added?

Being drafted isn't the same as being enslaved. Adult Jedi could leave. Padawans who were removed from thier parents as babies couldn't. The Jedi forcing children who didn't choose to in the Order to fight is a whole separate issue.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

I think its no accident Anakin became so screwed up after he left is mother. She was the first and probably the most beneficial relationship in his life. And her death. Well. A lot can be said. Pro-Jedi people look at what happened when Shmi died and see it as evidence of why Jedi are correct. They say "this is why attachments are bad at the Jedi are right to forbid them" In reality, Anakin's downward spiral is a prime example of what happens when a person isn't able to form healthy attachments or their healthy attachments are suddenly broken. Attachments are such a necessary part of human existence that we make them no matter what- but if a person doesn't form close, healthy attachments early in life they are more likely to form toxic ones later down the line.

And they also become more vulnerable to exploitation an manipulation. Ironically, the person who probably understands this best of all in Star Wars is *Palpatine*. Its why he positions himself not just as Anakin's mentor and friend but also as his father-figure.

James Luceno was commissioned to write a canonical work and wrote his novel with the expectation it would be part of canon. Unfortunately for him, the Franchise was sold about the time his book came out and Disney erased it. Along with many other books such as the Revenge of the SIth novelisation which Lucas personally line-edited and Luceno's Labyrinth of Evil which is actually directly referenced in the movie (the "incident at Cato Nemodia"). Well that and the fact the writers of the canon Obi Wan and Anakin comic copied what James Luceno described exactly in their depiction of Palpatine grooming young Anakin.

And are you telling me that his massacre of the village is OK because his mother died?

Oh look! Another strawman.

That seems to be your favorite logical fallacy. I guess its the easiest.

This is the hill you wanna die on? Like seriously.

That's funny. I seem to recall you were perfectly fine with Obi Wan Kenobi allying himself with mass-murdering terrorists because his girlfriend was in danger. One rule for me another for thee it seems.

That the Jedi are right because of his fear based yearning and obsession over his mother and he murdered a bunch of people. Fun fact after he does, this, he evaluates himself by the Jedi code and even says that he should be better than this. So that means even the character wouldn’t agree with you about attachments at least not at that time until Palpatine maneuvers him into believing otherwise.

Sorry, I couldn't extract anything coherent from that verbal diarrhoea so I will stick to facts.

Anakin hand to go against orders to find Shmi because the Jedi - explicitly forbade contact with family. Its stated directly in the movie like several times.

If he'd got to her sooner she wouldn't have died and he wouldn't have killed Tuskens. Its a simple *cause and effect* thing.

So yeah. The logical progression here isn't "muh Anakin obsessed with his mother- does bad thing because of it.

Its more like

Jedi ordered kid to stop missing his mother- Kid couldn't because its natural- Jedi forbade contact- Jedi can't understand why kid went against orders to find and help mother- Conclude kid must just be bad.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

I am not telling you what you can and cannot use in an argument- I am saying that if you claim not to be antisemitic its not a good look to condescend to Jews or engage in Tokenism. Nor indeed to trivialise and co-opt centuries of Jew hate to defend non-Jews.

“Your tiny little mind.” So I’m the one who with a tiny mind, even though your textbook definition indicates that you’re not using the full definition of elite. When people say elite, they think of the people in the highest rut of the social status. “

Nah, I have the correct definition. Just because ignorant people who don't understand what words mean are misdefining or misusing the term it doesn't follow I am wrong.

Words have meanings. You don't like those meanings? Tough. Not my problem and I don't have to pander to you.

"Well actually Jedi don't have power because they can't break the law" isn't what having power means. There are many kinds of power and the Jedi *can* break the law. That's why the Clones kill Pong Krell- because they knew he wouldn't be held accountable for what he did. And they can make people listen- then can literally mind trick people into doing what they want. They have supernatural abilities- powers- others don't. That makes them powerful.

And this one this one’s the kicker that you completely ignore “high social status.” They don’t. At all. They are feared. Despise. And considered people that work behind the scenes and are somehow in charge of everything

Antisemetic tropes involve according Jews more power and status then they actually have. People in the Star Wars Universe aren't doing that. They fear the Jedi because of simple observed facts: they have a Pod in the Senate, they are trusted by politicians, they can mind trick people and they have government permission to take away children.

He’s the chancellor. He is an actual wealthy, elite, and powerful in the government. There is not much the jet I can do considering he forced the point.

Its deeply disturbing how often Jedi Stans invoke the Nuremberg Defence of "just following orders". Even if somebody in authority over you tells you to commit an unlawful act you aren't supposed to actually do it. You are meant to refuse unless they actually force or compel you. The Jedi could just refuse: there wasn't actually that much Palpatine could do if they refused to give them access to Anakin. If he'd still continued to press the matter it would look even more suss.

Actually its funny at the same time, because Anakin can invoke the Nuremberg Defence since Palplatine would torture or kill him if he refused. Whereas the Jedi can't since they had the ability to say no.

Also, your tags do not match what you’re saying because the attachment you’re talking about is obsessive and yearning. According to someone, @writerbuddha who’s actually is a practicing Buddhist. Who has weighed on this argument and kind of debunked your claims.

“They can make people listen.” no they can’t. The main trick only works for a short period of time and it only works on the weak minded. Unless you’re implying that everybody that is around them is weak minded. No they are not. They are a minority faith and you’re basically advocating for the mind controlling people. Are you sure you’re not mistaking the Jedi for the Sith cause it could’ve fooled me.

No, you have only part of the definition of elite and you literally ignore the first part because it doesn’t fit with your argument…Pong Krell was executed because Dogma had enough of his crap and shot him… he was gonna be held accountable. That’s why the shooting him was such a shock.

They don’t have a pod in the Senate. They’re looking on an empty one…. So again, this falls into very antisemitic thought process that basically a minority religion in universe has more power than it actually has. Hence why I said this is like antisemitic arguments. Note the fact saying that the Jews and the Jedi are the same thing. I’m just pointing out in universe that basically you’re saying the exact same thing that people said about about the Jewish faith. And that kind of fictional mindset translates over to reality like people who ironically like the empire and then wonder why they are the bad guys.

Well, Palpatine is a chancellor could kick the Jedi out of the republic. He could ban them. He could’ve started the persecution of them for earlier or kidnapped Anakin since he’s perfectly fine with kidnapping people. What part of they can’t say no because they have absolutely no power do you not understand? Do words just not mean anything to you?

This sentence is incomprehensible. I can't tell if you're saying I claimed to be an Anglican (I didn't) or someone told you I was an Anglican. If so, they're wrong.

And it’s not token as of when I have actual people in the blogs agreeing with me.

Yes, that's literally how tokenism works. Hiding behind that *one* Jew who agrees with you and using them as a shield.

They are a minority faith and you’re basically advocating for the mind controlling people. Are you sure you’re not mistaking the Jedi for the Sith cause it could’ve fooled me.

All fictional mind control is temporary. I know media literacy isn't your strong-point but really. The duration of the mind disruption doesn't make it any less mind control.

Arguing semantics here is absurd. The Jedi have the ability to mind-control and even actively mind-r*pe people and they use it it canon. The people we don't see doing that, ironically, are Sith. Screaming "wahh that's what the Sith do!" over any ethically questionable action on the part of the Jedi without evidence isn't an argument, its a child throwing a tantrum.

They don’t have a pod in the Senate. They’re looking on an empty one…. So again, this falls into very antisemitic thought process that basically a minority religion in universe has more power than it actually has.

So now you're accusing me of "weaponising" antisemitism because I correctly define the term and insist on its correct application instead of coopting it to shield your favorite space wizards from criticism.

Yeah you're just projecting at this point. You literally don't have any arguments. Your entire position is screaming "NAZIIIIIII! "ANTISEMETIC!" It was vaguely amusing at first, now its just sad.

They don’t have the power to break the law. Like no. They’re subjected to the law just as much as the rest of them. Or did the trial of Ahsoka escape your notice? They didn’t have a choice but to hand her over.

Terrible example. Ahsoka was denied legal representation and tried in an adult military court without a semblance of due process. If the Jedi were actually subject to law, Yoda and Mace Windu would be court-martialled for their military blunders which caused mass casualties.

Pong Krell was executed because Dogma had enough of his crap and shot him… he was gonna be held accountable. That’s why the shooting him was such a shock.

There's literally a whole conversation about how nobody will take the word of Clones over that of a Jedi General and the Clones have no means of dealing with him legally.

What part of they can’t say no because they have absolutely no power do you not understand? Do words just not mean anything to you?

People with no political power don't generally tend to go meet Chancellors in their offices and brief them on military matters.

Well, Palpatine is a chancellor could kick the Jedi out of the republic. He could ban them. He could’ve started the persecution of them for earlier or kidnapped Anakin since he’s perfectly fine with kidnapping people.

If Palpatine had done any of those things without first casting the Jedi as traitors there would have been outrage. He couldn't just exile them for no good reason. (Although if the Jedi weren't attached to the Republic why would they be worried about exile anyway?)

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

Multiple sources also attest Lucas was inspired by several different institutions and religious traditions. Not exclusively Buddhism. See The Mythology of Star Wars an interview from 1999. The Templar inspiration is also well-attested. https://www.port.ac.uk/news-events-and-blogs/blogs/popular-culture/how-star-wars-jedi-were-inspired-by-the-knights-templar

In creator George Lucas’ 1973 two-page synopsis, titled the Journal of the Whills, which would outline what would one day become Star Wars, there is a mention of a Jedi Templar. American film historian J.W. Rinzler’s book, The Making of Star Wars, notes the link of the Templar and the Jedi in the character Chuiee Two Thorpe, who Lucas writes trains as a “potential Jedi-Templer [sic]”. “Templer” was dropped from the concept of Jedi in later drafts, it is clear, though, that the legacy of the Templars played a part in inspiring Lucas’ Jedi.

As for this:

your point about Anakin being freed is actually a good point because this person who’s trying to argue that for some reason me giving away her child it somehow awful, and Qui-Gon trying to selflessly take him out of slavery somehow bad… yeah the person who making these arguments has an issue with parental stuff.

Hello Strawman, I'm Tamar. I've never argued Shmi was a bad mother or blamed the parents. I've simply asserted Shmi's capacity for consent was non-existent, as was Anakin's. And as such they are terrible example of why the Jedi are righteous and holy and did no wrong ever. There's also the issue of Qui Gon taking a blood sample without Shmi's consent and the very real possibility neither Anakin nor Shmi realised they would never be allowed any contact again.

Cos' withholding information like that when you remove somebody's child is violating all kinds of ethical boundaries.

. They don’t socially isolate them. They voluntarily give up their parental rights to the Jedi order because they want them trained.

Why do parents have to give up their rights so a child can be trained? This makes no sense. A parent doesn't have to give up their parental rights in order for a child to go to school. The only time parental rights are removed is if the parent is deemed a threat to the child in some way- serious mistreatment or abuse.

They are not emotionally abusive because what they’re doing is they’re teaching their children the ways of the Jedi order. Kind of like a family that’s why we call a found family because they treat each other as family.

Teaching a child doesn't require them to sever all ties to their birth family. Again,, you cannot get around this matter. Why us it necessary for children taken by the Jedi to sever all ties to their birth parents and those parents to "give up their parental rights"? This doesn't happen in any educational institution anywhere. And we don't see the Jedi acting in a familial way- what we see is neglect and abandonment. Kids being used as canon fodder and abandoned in warzones. Consistent and repeated failures of the Jedi's duty of care to these kids.

Treating them essentially as adults who don't need supervision or protection and openly rebuking people who become too "attached" to their young charges.

. And they don’t isolate them from other things cause they are constantly exposed to different cultures and different viewpoints and different things.

Visiting another planet in what amounts to a field trip or government assignment doesn’t make up for the kids being banned from forming familial attachments or wrested away from their families. And everything is supposed to be filtered through the lens of Jedi Teaching. We never see anyone actually genuinely questioning it.

“I can protect you, but I can’t find a war for you.” “we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers.”

Both of these statements are followed by the Jedi literally becoming Commanders in the Grand Army of the Republic, and leading soldiers into battle. Commander and General are *military ranks* not religious designations.

Good grief, Fed just everyone just wanted to blame the monastic order for everything wrong in the galaxy and basically saying that their genocide was their fault?

Being murdered doesn't retroactively purify your record — victimhood and accountability aren't mutually exclusive, for institutions any more than for people. Nobody sane is saying the Jedi "deserved" Order 66; that's a strawman that lets you dodge the actual claim, which is that the Order had real, textually-supported failures (rigidity, institutional complacency, staring right past Palpatine for a decade, never questioning the clone chips) that the films themselves treat as part of the tragedy, not incidental to it

Yoda spends the sequel trilogy saying as much. Pointing out that an institution's own blind spots contributed to its fall isn't blaming the victims of a massacre, it's just… reading the text.

One headcanon that I've been holding to for months (at least) is that much of the Jedi arrogance, fanaticism for the Order, and attachment (oh, the irony) to the rigidity of their Code is a coping mechanism for the post-Ruusan Reformation Jedi up until the prequel era to insulate themselves from the trauma of being separated from their birth families at too young an age to understand it, denied something so psychologically necessary as strong interpersonal bonds and emotional validation, and trained as child soldiers to be put under the bus when their masters deem it convenient. They've been taught to see the questioning of such an upbringing and the acknowledgement of it as injustice as a path to the Dark Side, so they try to bat away their trauma by justifying the Order's conduct and general way of life as the best possible way for a Force Sensitive organization to sustain itself and achieve its goals, and thus their own upbringing by the Order as the best possible outcome for themselves. If they had to admit that there can be a better Jedi Order with a better way of doing things, then they would have to admit that they were raised by such a dysfunctional and corrupt institution, question the justice of it, and acknowledge the trauma that they've suppressing for nearly their whole lives, thus risking being consumed by it.

That's why the Order would not be only resistant to the notion of reforming their policies, but find it deeply traumatic (which they are institutionally averse to approaching). As tragic as the downfall of the Jedi Order was, it might have been a necessary evil in order for it to start over from scratch.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

I think its no accident Anakin became so screwed up after he left is mother. She was the first and probably the most beneficial relationship in his life. And her death. Well. A lot can be said. Pro-Jedi people look at what happened when Shmi died and see it as evidence of why Jedi are correct. They say "this is why attachments are bad at the Jedi are right to forbid them" In reality, Anakin's downward spiral is a prime example of what happens when a person isn't able to form healthy attachments or their healthy attachments are suddenly broken. Attachments are such a necessary part of human existence that we make them no matter what- but if a person doesn't form close, healthy attachments early in life they are more likely to form toxic ones later down the line.

And they also become more vulnerable to exploitation an manipulation. Ironically, the person who probably understands this best of all in Star Wars is *Palpatine*. Its why he positions himself not just as Anakin's mentor and friend but also as his father-figure.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

I am not telling you what you can and cannot use in an argument- I am saying that if you claim not to be antisemitic its not a good look to condescend to Jews or engage in Tokenism. Nor indeed to trivialise and co-opt centuries of Jew hate to defend non-Jews.

“Your tiny little mind.” So I’m the one who with a tiny mind, even though your textbook definition indicates that you’re not using the full definition of elite. When people say elite, they think of the people in the highest rut of the social status. “

Nah, I have the correct definition. Just because ignorant people who don't understand what words mean are misdefining or misusing the term it doesn't follow I am wrong.

Words have meanings. You don't like those meanings? Tough. Not my problem and I don't have to pander to you.

"Well actually Jedi don't have power because they can't break the law" isn't what having power means. There are many kinds of power and the Jedi *can* break the law. That's why the Clones kill Pong Krell- because they knew he wouldn't be held accountable for what he did. And they can make people listen- then can literally mind trick people into doing what they want. They have supernatural abilities- powers- others don't. That makes them powerful.

And this one this one’s the kicker that you completely ignore “high social status.” They don’t. At all. They are feared. Despise. And considered people that work behind the scenes and are somehow in charge of everything

Antisemetic tropes involve according Jews more power and status then they actually have. People in the Star Wars Universe aren't doing that. They fear the Jedi because of simple observed facts: they have a Pod in the Senate, they are trusted by politicians, they can mind trick people and they have government permission to take away children.

He’s the chancellor. He is an actual wealthy, elite, and powerful in the government. There is not much the jet I can do considering he forced the point.

Its deeply disturbing how often Jedi Stans invoke the Nuremberg Defence of "just following orders". Even if somebody in authority over you tells you to commit an unlawful act you aren't supposed to actually do it. You are meant to refuse unless they actually force or compel you. The Jedi could just refuse: there wasn't actually that much Palpatine could do if they refused to give them access to Anakin. If he'd still continued to press the matter it would look even more suss.

Actually its funny at the same time, because Anakin can invoke the Nuremberg Defence since Palplatine would torture or kill him if he refused. Whereas the Jedi can't since they had the ability to say no.

Also, your tags do not match what you’re saying because the attachment you’re talking about is obsessive and yearning. According to someone, @writerbuddha who’s actually is a practicing Buddhist. Who has weighed on this argument and kind of debunked your claims.

Mandos do not claim to be the good guys. They are SW's answer to D&D barbarians or various other raiding cultures, or that quote of "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun." And where you have wars, you get war orphans. Various cultures across the world from have had the practice of "I can raid this village but I draw the line at killing kids the kids. Might as well take them in." It's not great, but the alternatives for the kid are worse.

Sith are the bad guys. We expect them to be the bad guys. If there is a puppy to kick, they're going to kick it. No big surprise that they do the whole "stuff the kid in the trunk" method.

I don't know about you but I find characters who have just murdered a child's parents adopting said child absolutely creepy, not cute. And I only said "take in a child", both you and other person inmediately said circumstances are different to argue in favor of Mandos when Jedi haven't murdered a parent and then taken their Force-sensitive child in either canon or the EU.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

"Attachment means obsession, or being possessive or being toxic and stifling, treating someone else like an object."

Makes sense.

"We have to take small children with this natural divergence away from their families and lock them up in this tower were they will never see or hear from them again."

Okay, this is the kind of thing you expect from the guys running the show in a dystopian sci-fi novel - people we need to run way from or fight against.

But you are supposed to be the good guys here. You are supposed to be these magnificent paragons - so why the dystopian tactic?

"Because these small children loving their caretakers IS attachment - toxic, possessive, and obsessive."

And I'm out.

These guys consider the first and most fundamental an infant develops as "toxic, possessive obsession?!" This sets a very low bar for speculating what these people would consider acceptable.

The first love between a parent and a child in the Star Wars galaxy is realizing that the Force is calling them to greater things. The Jedi are one of the many religions that follow the Force. Parents willingly give up their child because the Jedi are a monastic order. Monastic orders tend to cut them themselves off from the world because they have a different focus. And if the Jedi ask and parents accept it of that’s part of the deal. Nothing about that screams dystopia. The parents choose to send their children off to a place where they can learn. Also, no, they don’t lock them away. They know about their culture and they know about their people and when they’re old enough, they can seek out their parents and talk to them. Nothing is stopping them.

Oh, they can wear costumes and go on theme park adventures to "experience and keep" their native culture so long as they come back home to Coruscant and get on with the business of killing Sith and propping up the Republic ruling class. Whoopee Doo, how generous!

Now if we're talking an abuse/neglect/abandonment situation where the parents forfeited the honor? Okay, totally can get behind Jedi intervention and having a setup for that.

However, sending a heavily armed sorcerer with full government backing to bang on the door of some otherwise perfectly loving family who didn't plan to give up their child to this agent, never to see or hear from them again? Their child will be dead to them and they will be dead to the child, all so this stranger can melt them down and forge them into perfect hands and eyes for the Almighty Order? Yeah.

This isn’t like the Time Lord Academy on Gallifrey. They are given a free choice and yes it is considered an honor because the child is going to be a keeper of the peace

People you really don’t understand why they said he was of the dark side. It wasn’t the fact that he couldn’t forget his mother “on command.” It was the fact that he had attachments. He had an unnatural obsession with control.

But then the resident Tinfoil Hat gets a look at Anakin and gets it in his head that this small kid could be their fabled ultimate anti-Sith living weapon. Okay, dead Sith - VERY good thing. Dead Sith means the Jedi and the Republic will never have to worry about their old enemies ever again. Pax Republica forever - yay!

We know with dramatic irony this isn't gonna end well.

So Tinfoil Hat wins the kid in a sports bet and hauls him away from everything he knew. Technically, Anakin is "free," but the kid has zero concept of legal freedom or means of autonomous living. This is not for the benefit of the kid, however, but the benefit of the powerful Jedi Order and the Republic they serve as government agents.

So this kid is all by himself being interrogated for hours by a dozen creepy old men (essentially his potential new owners) who want him for something but the kid has no idea what. But he is very determined to be whatever his new owners want because the alternative is being kicked back to that overgrown housefly. He's rather understandably homesick, overwhelmed, scared, and worried about his mom that's still in slavery and these government agents are interrogating him as to his suitability to be their ultimate living weapon to smite their enemies and ensure their eternal hegemony. (Dead Sith are a good thing...even if this whole "turn a kid into a living weapon" idea is getting into the question of ends justifying means) And we know with dramatic irony it's not gonna end well.

But they refuse him to his face because he's acting like a nine year old kid. I didn't see anything possessive or some desire to control everything. He was just a kid at that point. It looks like they only made an exception because an honest to Force Sith kills Tinfoil Hat, which makes them think "Well, shit. Guess we need a Sith killer." (And this happens while they are enforcing the law on behalf of the government to put the ruler they favor - Padme - back in power). None of this seems to be about Anakin's well being, but the Order's need for an effective weapon to maintain the crumbling Republic and smite their enemy.

And I can’t believe I keep having say this but the Sith are the bad guys. Their ideology is based on the a Darwinian belief and Nazism.

Sith (and Sith adjacent) are such an absolute, horrible worst case scenario that just about any means to exterminate them and their influence from the galaxy, no matter how cold blooded and brutal, can be justified. And if the only way to prevent Sith was to round up every Force Sensitive child, isolate them from society, and subject them to intense psychological conditioning so that they are incapable of betrayal, then it's justified.

And considering how all of this child conscription and questionable institutional care damages the psyches of its recruits so much that they have to come up with this arrogant justification of the Jedi Order being the wisest, most powerful, knowledgeable, and benevolent organization in the universe in order to cope with the trauma of being taken from their families and being trained as expendable government agents for a corrupt Republic, and that arrogance ends up leading to their own downfall and the rise to power of the Sith anyways, I would say that it actually wouldn't be so justified.

As for your tirade about Anakin‘s mother, yes she had every right to consent. She’s his mother. She literally told the Jedi to take her son away. And she knew exactly what he was getting into. And Anakin very enthusiastically consented. I get the impression that you did not pay attention to the movie whatsoever. Which would explain your very dubious claims and downright lies.

As for your nonsense about child conscription first of all trauma? There is no trauma. That’s a fan made concept no where in canon is that ever shown. We see them is very happy and very content. And every time the child is given up to the Jedi, it is given with the express consent of the parents with the full knowledge that they are going to be raised by the order, there is no coercion no trauma nothing. Your head canon is simply that a head canon that is not supported by the text at all. Why the hell do you even watch Star Wars? If you basically look at the Jedi, who are undisputably by its own text, the contested good guys and seemed to think that they are corrupt organization that traumatizes children with none of that is true. What the hell I get the person that you people just for some reason have religious trauma that you want to put on the Jedi. When none of that is supported by the texts at all.

“Their arrogance led to their own downfall.” Yes let’s the evil religious order that literally controls the government…. You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

What do you suppose would have happened if Qui Gon had taken Anakin without buying his freedom first? Apart from the whole *bomb in his head* thing - he'd have been arrested for "stealing" a slave. Yeah, you can steal another sentient being- slavery is messed up.

When Anakin learns his mother hasn't been freed and isn't coming with him he is very, very obviously *not* happy. You must've watched TPM blindfolded to not notice how upset he is when he realised Qui Gon had only freed *him* and he had to leave his mom.

There's also a scene on Padme's ship a little later where Padme find him *crying*. Kids don't cry when they're happy. Anakin wasn't happy leaving his mother and going halfway across the galaxy with near total strangers or being a Jedi, as it turned out.

You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

That was really your argument, you schmuck? You going to try and lecture a Jew on antisemitism too? Yeah- shut up and listen: you're an idiot. Appropriating racism to try and shut people down because you don't have an argument: its as bad as screaming "Nazi!" The Jedi being a minority doesn't mean a thing. Minorities can be and have been part of the government and had enormous political influence. Its happened in multiple societies and cultures.

A few examples include:

Samurai: an elite warrior group who served as military retainers and eventually feudal Lords in their own right. Also a minority- there were no more than than a few thousand Samurai out of a population of millions.

Mamluks: Slave soldiers in Medieval MENA and Eastern Europe. Ended up creating their own Sultanate. A minority.

Knights Templar: Warrior monastic order which operated in Medieval Levant and Europe. Elite warriors, bankers, landowners and advisors to Kings and rulers. A minority- also one of the major inspirations for the Jedi according to George Lucas. Although they were also modelled on Samurai too.

Shaolin Monks- Warrior monks in Medieval Japan. Became involved in many major conflicts.

So yeah- you can be a minority and still be involved in politics Its not just possible, its common. So let's cut the crap and say that "the Jedi are a minority therefore they can't do anything politically or morally questionable, yeah? The Sith aren't the people in Star Wars who we see

Commisioning and leading an army of slave soldiers

Recruiting babies and getting them killed on the battlefield aged 12

Leaving Padawans for dead on training exercizes to be hunted for sport by locals

Allowing shady politicians to have unsupervised access to minors in their care.

Overriding people's consent with mind tricks to get what they want

Mind r*ping prisoners

Burning Geonosian nest hives whilst cracking sick jokes about "killing bugs"

Its the Jedi we see doing those things. Actions speak louder than words, and that's why people say the Jedi aren't are pure and righteous as thy claim to be: because what we *see* of their actions doesn't align with it.

Secondly he was happy to fulfill his dream. He was just sad his mother couldn’t come but he did understand why. And also Jinn tried to free Shmi. Guess again you didn’t pay attention.

And yes I do use antisemitism in the argument because the very basis of it ie a minority religious group is controlling the government is being used in this argument. Just because you don’t like that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Also almost all the groups you mentioned were landed military elites not monks. And the Shaolin only had power due to being part of a religious majority….Buddhism you might have heard of it.

Now let me break down things point by point.

1. One Jedi without anyone’s knowledge or consent did that. And it was acknowledged as wrong

2. They didn’t…they were given to the Order before the war started and were drafted in later.

3. They didn’t those Padawans were kidnapped and that was illegal. Duh. Clearly didn’t pay attention to the episode

4. Grooming is kept secret for a reason and Palpatine used his power to force the issue…wow not paying attention again.

5. “The Force works on the weak minded”….its the only thing that’s murky in terms of consent as seen in the movie. I’m given to understand that both in Legends and canon is that it just convinces someone to do something that was on their mind not coerces their free will.

6. And that was depicted as wrong in show and wasn’t repeated constantly.

7. That was George and yes that was wrong and was semi rectified. And mostly that was the clones cracking those jokes. And yes it was messed up but it was rectified

Next you’ll tell me that the Sith aren’t the bad guys.

Hannah was allowed to visit Samuel at least once a year and give him a new tunic on the Pilgrim Feasts. Jedi don't allow parents to visit their children.

Eli didn't force Hannah to give up her son. The Jedi would have. HaShem is not a control freak who hates families and tries to break up the unique bond between parents and children because He is insecure.

Do try not to bring down my religion to the level of whatever hideous monstrosity you follow.

Also almost all the groups you mentioned were landed military elites not monks.

How do you think enslaved children like the Mamluks became landed military elites?

I note you missed out the Templars - who were very much a monastic order. Very revealing.

Now let's move on

1: It wasn't acknowledged as wrong. They all led Clones into battle

2: "Don't put children in combat" isn't a hard concept to grasp

3: The Padawans were kidnapped but their Masters made no attempt to look for them and abandoned them to their fate. They openly say this. You clearly didn't register the fact.

4: "Palpatine used his power to Force the issue" is not an excuse for the Jedi to forget their duty of care to a vulnerable child. If I gave a child to an abuser because he pulled rank on me I am an enabler.

5: If you have to go to Legends you have already lost the argument. Canon clearly shows mind tricks overriding people's free will

6: Nope

Again, you pointed out landed gentry, and people that were enslaved were all military. I’ll admit I’m not familiar Mumlaks but from what you’re saying, none of it sounds like the Jedi. They’re enslaved people which are not. I get the impression you never heard of a monastic order ever.

1. Yes, they acknowledge it as wrong. Or all those clone rights advocates, and the fact that the Jedi fought for them and tried to treat them as human beings escape your notice.

2. Do the words we are dealing with a fantastical society that has a different viewpoint escape your grasp? No, then why the hell are you watching Star Wars?

3. So I was right? Funny you make it sound like I was wrong but yet you just admitted that I was right and also you’re moving the goals. You are aware of that these pad ones haven’t had new contact and as far as the masters are concerned, they are dead. Also wasn’t aware that you could basically just find them in a few weeks in a galaxy. They think that their masters left them for dead but for all they know that that’s the case but do we ever get the perspective of the masters? Or how about the time in Legends were kidnapped and they did a effort to look for him. It’s a huge galaxy. They probably did look for him and then just couldn’t find them. Again, these are people that are talking that are embittered so that clouds judgment. They don’t know, but if you noticed as soon as Ahsoka was rescued because they were able to find her, they took back the Padawans as well.

4. Oh so we’re victim blaming now? So all of the parents that have had their children, abused by predators are somehow guilty of it and enablers. Yeah, get out of here. Grooming is specifically secret and here’s the funny little thing that you seem to forget, they don’t know we as the audience know they as a people do know you’re seem to think that the Jedi are somehow omniscient when they’re not.

5. Wait so you going into Legends is OK for you to do it, but not me? 

6. Just saying nope doesn’t help your argument. It just means that you don’t wanna listen to an argument and you just want to be right. You know the thing you’re accusing the Jedi of being.

7. Yeah, and rebels fix that. Yeah that’s messed up and I agree with you on that but that doesn’t make the order as a whole evil somehow. Again, you’re gonna tell me that the Sith are somehow justified and “a persecuted minority.”

Look, you can hate the Jedi as much as you want, but they are the undisputed good guys. They don’t steal children. The art in charge of the Republic. And shame on you for basically yelling at them for not knowing something that we the audience know.

1: You are not Jewish

2: You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about and are weaponising a very serious matter to win a petty argument over fictional space wizards. So yeah- I am not going to hold back on you any more. You asked for it.

You made a terrible analogy invoking an important figure in Jewish and Biblical lore- Shmuel HaNavi (well, actually his mother) to justify the Jedi's practices. Did you expect me not to react to that? To say you were correct? To humbly roll over and concede like a good Jew and submit to your superior insights on my own Holy Book and religious figures? Not gonna happen. Hannah's case was nothing like what happens with the Jedi and the comparison is frankly insulting for so many reasons. Not least being the Jedi's insane aversion to explicit rejection of familial relationships is entirely contrary to Jewish culture, customs and practices.

In fact, that applies to all religions. There is no religion on the face of the earth that recruits infants and then requires their parents to sever all ties with them for life because they consider the bond between a parent and child to be inherently dangerous and evil.

And before you bring them up, no monks don't do this. Monastaries don't allow minors to take vows. You can only become a monk as an adult of your own free will. Same applies to nuns. In fact, the only religious groups who do anything like your precious Jedi are considered corrupt and amoral. Like the Catholic church illegally adopting out kids without their parents consent, or when children from indigenous communities in places like Australia and Canada were sent by force to "schools" to be "civilised". Or the Janissaries that @allronix bought up: children removed from Christian families, indoctrinated, raised as Muslims and then trained to fight to uphold the very empire that conquered them. Guess what? Similar things were done to Jews as well. Forced adoptions, forced conversions, erasure of cultures. All of them. Now why do you think that is? Like have you taken even a second to seriously think about why removing kids from their birth parents because you don't want them to form bonds with said parents is almost universally considered a *bad* thing in every culture and society?

4. Oh so we’re victim blaming now? So all of the parents that have had their children, abused by predators are somehow guilty of it and enablers. Yeah, get out of here. Grooming is specifically secret and here’s the funny little thing that you seem to forget, they don’t know we as the audience know they as a people do know you’re seem to think that the Jedi are somehow omniscient when they’re not.

What you are doing here is called DARVO. I won't explain it to you but its a classic manipulation tactic used deflect attention away from abusers and avoid accountability. The only people who victim-blame are Jedi Stans when they say Anakin was responsible for his own grooming. That he "allowed himself" to be manipulated or "shouldn't have listened" to his abuser - thus putting the duty of ending the abuse on the child. Not the adults who should be caring for them. If an adult knowingly allows an abuser to have access to a child in their care, they are an enabler. This is recognised in law, and by social workers. What they are not is a "secondary victim". Anyone who needs to weaponise victimisation to absolve adults of their duty of care to a vulnerable child is beneath contempt. Now be quiet and spend time educating yourself. You know nothing about Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, abuse, or society in general. Or indeed narratives and storytelling. Even Wookiepedia says the Jedi were part of a government department.

Nor mentioned that the Jedi knew Palpatine was an abuser….

That's why nannies and nursery workers have to have all kinds of documents and checks. The Jedi did not trust Palpatine- we know this. And yet they still saw fit to give him unsupervised access to one of their Padawans and blamed said Padawan for not being suspicious enough of him.

"But this article doesn't say the Jedi are an elite!" Of course, in your tiny mind which fails to understand the world and terminology a "minority can't possibly be an elite"

In fact, elites are minorities by definition. Literally.

The word elite refers to a small, select group of people who have the most power, wealth, high social status, or the best skills and training in a society or field. [1, 2]

Cambridge English Dictionary. An elite means a small select group. It cannot be a majority. The Jedi are a small select groups with the best skills and training.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

"Attachment means obsession, or being possessive or being toxic and stifling, treating someone else like an object."

Makes sense.

"We have to take small children with this natural divergence away from their families and lock them up in this tower were they will never see or hear from them again."

Okay, this is the kind of thing you expect from the guys running the show in a dystopian sci-fi novel - people we need to run way from or fight against.

But you are supposed to be the good guys here. You are supposed to be these magnificent paragons - so why the dystopian tactic?

"Because these small children loving their caretakers IS attachment - toxic, possessive, and obsessive."

And I'm out.

These guys consider the first and most fundamental an infant develops as "toxic, possessive obsession?!" This sets a very low bar for speculating what these people would consider acceptable.

The first love between a parent and a child in the Star Wars galaxy is realizing that the Force is calling them to greater things. The Jedi are one of the many religions that follow the Force. Parents willingly give up their child because the Jedi are a monastic order. Monastic orders tend to cut them themselves off from the world because they have a different focus. And if the Jedi ask and parents accept it of that’s part of the deal. Nothing about that screams dystopia. The parents choose to send their children off to a place where they can learn. Also, no, they don’t lock them away. They know about their culture and they know about their people and when they’re old enough, they can seek out their parents and talk to them. Nothing is stopping them.

Oh, they can wear costumes and go on theme park adventures to "experience and keep" their native culture so long as they come back home to Coruscant and get on with the business of killing Sith and propping up the Republic ruling class. Whoopee Doo, how generous!

Now if we're talking an abuse/neglect/abandonment situation where the parents forfeited the honor? Okay, totally can get behind Jedi intervention and having a setup for that.

However, sending a heavily armed sorcerer with full government backing to bang on the door of some otherwise perfectly loving family who didn't plan to give up their child to this agent, never to see or hear from them again? Their child will be dead to them and they will be dead to the child, all so this stranger can melt them down and forge them into perfect hands and eyes for the Almighty Order? Yeah.

This isn’t like the Time Lord Academy on Gallifrey. They are given a free choice and yes it is considered an honor because the child is going to be a keeper of the peace

People you really don’t understand why they said he was of the dark side. It wasn’t the fact that he couldn’t forget his mother “on command.” It was the fact that he had attachments. He had an unnatural obsession with control.

But then the resident Tinfoil Hat gets a look at Anakin and gets it in his head that this small kid could be their fabled ultimate anti-Sith living weapon. Okay, dead Sith - VERY good thing. Dead Sith means the Jedi and the Republic will never have to worry about their old enemies ever again. Pax Republica forever - yay!

We know with dramatic irony this isn't gonna end well.

So Tinfoil Hat wins the kid in a sports bet and hauls him away from everything he knew. Technically, Anakin is "free," but the kid has zero concept of legal freedom or means of autonomous living. This is not for the benefit of the kid, however, but the benefit of the powerful Jedi Order and the Republic they serve as government agents.

So this kid is all by himself being interrogated for hours by a dozen creepy old men (essentially his potential new owners) who want him for something but the kid has no idea what. But he is very determined to be whatever his new owners want because the alternative is being kicked back to that overgrown housefly. He's rather understandably homesick, overwhelmed, scared, and worried about his mom that's still in slavery and these government agents are interrogating him as to his suitability to be their ultimate living weapon to smite their enemies and ensure their eternal hegemony. (Dead Sith are a good thing...even if this whole "turn a kid into a living weapon" idea is getting into the question of ends justifying means) And we know with dramatic irony it's not gonna end well.

But they refuse him to his face because he's acting like a nine year old kid. I didn't see anything possessive or some desire to control everything. He was just a kid at that point. It looks like they only made an exception because an honest to Force Sith kills Tinfoil Hat, which makes them think "Well, shit. Guess we need a Sith killer." (And this happens while they are enforcing the law on behalf of the government to put the ruler they favor - Padme - back in power). None of this seems to be about Anakin's well being, but the Order's need for an effective weapon to maintain the crumbling Republic and smite their enemy.

And I can’t believe I keep having say this but the Sith are the bad guys. Their ideology is based on the a Darwinian belief and Nazism.

Sith (and Sith adjacent) are such an absolute, horrible worst case scenario that just about any means to exterminate them and their influence from the galaxy, no matter how cold blooded and brutal, can be justified. And if the only way to prevent Sith was to round up every Force Sensitive child, isolate them from society, and subject them to intense psychological conditioning so that they are incapable of betrayal, then it's justified.

And considering how all of this child conscription and questionable institutional care damages the psyches of its recruits so much that they have to come up with this arrogant justification of the Jedi Order being the wisest, most powerful, knowledgeable, and benevolent organization in the universe in order to cope with the trauma of being taken from their families and being trained as expendable government agents for a corrupt Republic, and that arrogance ends up leading to their own downfall and the rise to power of the Sith anyways, I would say that it actually wouldn't be so justified.

As for your tirade about Anakin‘s mother, yes she had every right to consent. She’s his mother. She literally told the Jedi to take her son away. And she knew exactly what he was getting into. And Anakin very enthusiastically consented. I get the impression that you did not pay attention to the movie whatsoever. Which would explain your very dubious claims and downright lies.

As for your nonsense about child conscription first of all trauma? There is no trauma. That’s a fan made concept no where in canon is that ever shown. We see them is very happy and very content. And every time the child is given up to the Jedi, it is given with the express consent of the parents with the full knowledge that they are going to be raised by the order, there is no coercion no trauma nothing. Your head canon is simply that a head canon that is not supported by the text at all. Why the hell do you even watch Star Wars? If you basically look at the Jedi, who are undisputably by its own text, the contested good guys and seemed to think that they are corrupt organization that traumatizes children with none of that is true. What the hell I get the person that you people just for some reason have religious trauma that you want to put on the Jedi. When none of that is supported by the texts at all.

“Their arrogance led to their own downfall.” Yes let’s the evil religious order that literally controls the government…. You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

What do you suppose would have happened if Qui Gon had taken Anakin without buying his freedom first? Apart from the whole *bomb in his head* thing - he'd have been arrested for "stealing" a slave. Yeah, you can steal another sentient being- slavery is messed up.

When Anakin learns his mother hasn't been freed and isn't coming with him he is very, very obviously *not* happy. You must've watched TPM blindfolded to not notice how upset he is when he realised Qui Gon had only freed *him* and he had to leave his mom.

There's also a scene on Padme's ship a little later where Padme find him *crying*. Kids don't cry when they're happy. Anakin wasn't happy leaving his mother and going halfway across the galaxy with near total strangers or being a Jedi, as it turned out.

You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

That was really your argument, you schmuck? You going to try and lecture a Jew on antisemitism too? Yeah- shut up and listen: you're an idiot. Appropriating racism to try and shut people down because you don't have an argument: its as bad as screaming "Nazi!" The Jedi being a minority doesn't mean a thing. Minorities can be and have been part of the government and had enormous political influence. Its happened in multiple societies and cultures.

A few examples include:

Samurai: an elite warrior group who served as military retainers and eventually feudal Lords in their own right. Also a minority- there were no more than than a few thousand Samurai out of a population of millions.

Mamluks: Slave soldiers in Medieval MENA and Eastern Europe. Ended up creating their own Sultanate. A minority.

Knights Templar: Warrior monastic order which operated in Medieval Levant and Europe. Elite warriors, bankers, landowners and advisors to Kings and rulers. A minority- also one of the major inspirations for the Jedi according to George Lucas. Although they were also modelled on Samurai too.

Shaolin Monks- Warrior monks in Medieval Japan. Became involved in many major conflicts.

So yeah- you can be a minority and still be involved in politics Its not just possible, its common. So let's cut the crap and say that "the Jedi are a minority therefore they can't do anything politically or morally questionable, yeah? The Sith aren't the people in Star Wars who we see

Commisioning and leading an army of slave soldiers

Recruiting babies and getting them killed on the battlefield aged 12

Leaving Padawans for dead on training exercizes to be hunted for sport by locals

Allowing shady politicians to have unsupervised access to minors in their care.

Overriding people's consent with mind tricks to get what they want

Mind r*ping prisoners

Burning Geonosian nest hives whilst cracking sick jokes about "killing bugs"

Its the Jedi we see doing those things. Actions speak louder than words, and that's why people say the Jedi aren't are pure and righteous as thy claim to be: because what we *see* of their actions doesn't align with it.

Secondly he was happy to fulfill his dream. He was just sad his mother couldn’t come but he did understand why. And also Jinn tried to free Shmi. Guess again you didn’t pay attention.

And yes I do use antisemitism in the argument because the very basis of it ie a minority religious group is controlling the government is being used in this argument. Just because you don’t like that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Also almost all the groups you mentioned were landed military elites not monks. And the Shaolin only had power due to being part of a religious majority….Buddhism you might have heard of it.

Now let me break down things point by point.

1. One Jedi without anyone’s knowledge or consent did that. And it was acknowledged as wrong

2. They didn’t…they were given to the Order before the war started and were drafted in later.

3. They didn’t those Padawans were kidnapped and that was illegal. Duh. Clearly didn’t pay attention to the episode

4. Grooming is kept secret for a reason and Palpatine used his power to force the issue…wow not paying attention again.

5. “The Force works on the weak minded”….its the only thing that’s murky in terms of consent as seen in the movie. I’m given to understand that both in Legends and canon is that it just convinces someone to do something that was on their mind not coerces their free will.

6. And that was depicted as wrong in show and wasn’t repeated constantly.

7. That was George and yes that was wrong and was semi rectified. And mostly that was the clones cracking those jokes. And yes it was messed up but it was rectified

Next you’ll tell me that the Sith aren’t the bad guys.

Hannah was allowed to visit Samuel at least once a year and give him a new tunic on the Pilgrim Feasts. Jedi don't allow parents to visit their children.

Eli didn't force Hannah to give up her son. The Jedi would have. HaShem is not a control freak who hates families and tries to break up the unique bond between parents and children because He is insecure.

Do try not to bring down my religion to the level of whatever hideous monstrosity you follow.

Also almost all the groups you mentioned were landed military elites not monks.

How do you think enslaved children like the Mamluks became landed military elites?

I note you missed out the Templars - who were very much a monastic order. Very revealing.

Now let's move on

1: It wasn't acknowledged as wrong. They all led Clones into battle

2: "Don't put children in combat" isn't a hard concept to grasp

3: The Padawans were kidnapped but their Masters made no attempt to look for them and abandoned them to their fate. They openly say this. You clearly didn't register the fact.

4: "Palpatine used his power to Force the issue" is not an excuse for the Jedi to forget their duty of care to a vulnerable child. If I gave a child to an abuser because he pulled rank on me I am an enabler.

5: If you have to go to Legends you have already lost the argument. Canon clearly shows mind tricks overriding people's free will

6: Nope

Again, you pointed out landed gentry, and people that were enslaved were all military. I’ll admit I’m not familiar Mumlaks but from what you’re saying, none of it sounds like the Jedi. They’re enslaved people which are not. I get the impression you never heard of a monastic order ever.

1. Yes, they acknowledge it as wrong. Or all those clone rights advocates, and the fact that the Jedi fought for them and tried to treat them as human beings escape your notice.

2. Do the words we are dealing with a fantastical society that has a different viewpoint escape your grasp? No, then why the hell are you watching Star Wars?

3. So I was right? Funny you make it sound like I was wrong but yet you just admitted that I was right and also you’re moving the goals. You are aware of that these pad ones haven’t had new contact and as far as the masters are concerned, they are dead. Also wasn’t aware that you could basically just find them in a few weeks in a galaxy. They think that their masters left them for dead but for all they know that that’s the case but do we ever get the perspective of the masters? Or how about the time in Legends were kidnapped and they did a effort to look for him. It’s a huge galaxy. They probably did look for him and then just couldn’t find them. Again, these are people that are talking that are embittered so that clouds judgment. They don’t know, but if you noticed as soon as Ahsoka was rescued because they were able to find her, they took back the Padawans as well.

4. Oh so we’re victim blaming now? So all of the parents that have had their children, abused by predators are somehow guilty of it and enablers. Yeah, get out of here. Grooming is specifically secret and here’s the funny little thing that you seem to forget, they don’t know we as the audience know they as a people do know you’re seem to think that the Jedi are somehow omniscient when they’re not.

5. Wait so you going into Legends is OK for you to do it, but not me? 

6. Just saying nope doesn’t help your argument. It just means that you don’t wanna listen to an argument and you just want to be right. You know the thing you’re accusing the Jedi of being.

7. Yeah, and rebels fix that. Yeah that’s messed up and I agree with you on that but that doesn’t make the order as a whole evil somehow. Again, you’re gonna tell me that the Sith are somehow justified and “a persecuted minority.”

Look, you can hate the Jedi as much as you want, but they are the undisputed good guys. They don’t steal children. The art in charge of the Republic. And shame on you for basically yelling at them for not knowing something that we the audience know.

1: You are not Jewish

2: You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about and are weaponising a very serious matter to win a petty argument over fictional space wizards. So yeah- I am not going to hold back on you any more. You asked for it.

You made a terrible analogy invoking an important figure in Jewish and Biblical lore- Shmuel HaNavi (well, actually his mother) to justify the Jedi's practices. Did you expect me not to react to that? To say you were correct? To humbly roll over and concede like a good Jew and submit to your superior insights on my own Holy Book and religious figures? Not gonna happen. Hannah's case was nothing like what happens with the Jedi and the comparison is frankly insulting for so many reasons. Not least being the Jedi's insane aversion to explicit rejection of familial relationships is entirely contrary to Jewish culture, customs and practices.

In fact, that applies to all religions. There is no religion on the face of the earth that recruits infants and then requires their parents to sever all ties with them for life because they consider the bond between a parent and child to be inherently dangerous and evil.

And before you bring them up, no monks don't do this. Monastaries don't allow minors to take vows. You can only become a monk as an adult of your own free will. Same applies to nuns. In fact, the only religious groups who do anything like your precious Jedi are considered corrupt and amoral. Like the Catholic church illegally adopting out kids without their parents consent, or when children from indigenous communities in places like Australia and Canada were sent by force to "schools" to be "civilised". Or the Janissaries that @allronix bought up: children removed from Christian families, indoctrinated, raised as Muslims and then trained to fight to uphold the very empire that conquered them. Guess what? Similar things were done to Jews as well. Forced adoptions, forced conversions, erasure of cultures. All of them. Now why do you think that is? Like have you taken even a second to seriously think about why removing kids from their birth parents because you don't want them to form bonds with said parents is almost universally considered a *bad* thing in every culture and society?

4. Oh so we’re victim blaming now? So all of the parents that have had their children, abused by predators are somehow guilty of it and enablers. Yeah, get out of here. Grooming is specifically secret and here’s the funny little thing that you seem to forget, they don’t know we as the audience know they as a people do know you’re seem to think that the Jedi are somehow omniscient when they’re not.

What you are doing here is called DARVO. I won't explain it to you but its a classic manipulation tactic used deflect attention away from abusers and avoid accountability. The only people who victim-blame are Jedi Stans when they say Anakin was responsible for his own grooming. That he "allowed himself" to be manipulated or "shouldn't have listened" to his abuser - thus putting the duty of ending the abuse on the child. Not the adults who should be caring for them. If an adult knowingly allows an abuser to have access to a child in their care, they are an enabler. This is recognised in law, and by social workers. What they are not is a "secondary victim". Anyone who needs to weaponise victimisation to absolve adults of their duty of care to a vulnerable child is beneath contempt. Now be quiet and spend time educating yourself. You know nothing about Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, abuse, or society in general. Or indeed narratives and storytelling. Even Wookiepedia says the Jedi were part of a government department.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

"Attachment means obsession, or being possessive or being toxic and stifling, treating someone else like an object."

Makes sense.

"We have to take small children with this natural divergence away from their families and lock them up in this tower were they will never see or hear from them again."

Okay, this is the kind of thing you expect from the guys running the show in a dystopian sci-fi novel - people we need to run way from or fight against.

But you are supposed to be the good guys here. You are supposed to be these magnificent paragons - so why the dystopian tactic?

"Because these small children loving their caretakers IS attachment - toxic, possessive, and obsessive."

And I'm out.

These guys consider the first and most fundamental an infant develops as "toxic, possessive obsession?!" This sets a very low bar for speculating what these people would consider acceptable.

The first love between a parent and a child in the Star Wars galaxy is realizing that the Force is calling them to greater things. The Jedi are one of the many religions that follow the Force. Parents willingly give up their child because the Jedi are a monastic order. Monastic orders tend to cut them themselves off from the world because they have a different focus. And if the Jedi ask and parents accept it of that’s part of the deal. Nothing about that screams dystopia. The parents choose to send their children off to a place where they can learn. Also, no, they don’t lock them away. They know about their culture and they know about their people and when they’re old enough, they can seek out their parents and talk to them. Nothing is stopping them.

Oh, they can wear costumes and go on theme park adventures to "experience and keep" their native culture so long as they come back home to Coruscant and get on with the business of killing Sith and propping up the Republic ruling class. Whoopee Doo, how generous!

Now if we're talking an abuse/neglect/abandonment situation where the parents forfeited the honor? Okay, totally can get behind Jedi intervention and having a setup for that.

However, sending a heavily armed sorcerer with full government backing to bang on the door of some otherwise perfectly loving family who didn't plan to give up their child to this agent, never to see or hear from them again? Their child will be dead to them and they will be dead to the child, all so this stranger can melt them down and forge them into perfect hands and eyes for the Almighty Order? Yeah.

This isn’t like the Time Lord Academy on Gallifrey. They are given a free choice and yes it is considered an honor because the child is going to be a keeper of the peace

People you really don’t understand why they said he was of the dark side. It wasn’t the fact that he couldn’t forget his mother “on command.” It was the fact that he had attachments. He had an unnatural obsession with control.

But then the resident Tinfoil Hat gets a look at Anakin and gets it in his head that this small kid could be their fabled ultimate anti-Sith living weapon. Okay, dead Sith - VERY good thing. Dead Sith means the Jedi and the Republic will never have to worry about their old enemies ever again. Pax Republica forever - yay!

We know with dramatic irony this isn't gonna end well.

So Tinfoil Hat wins the kid in a sports bet and hauls him away from everything he knew. Technically, Anakin is "free," but the kid has zero concept of legal freedom or means of autonomous living. This is not for the benefit of the kid, however, but the benefit of the powerful Jedi Order and the Republic they serve as government agents.

So this kid is all by himself being interrogated for hours by a dozen creepy old men (essentially his potential new owners) who want him for something but the kid has no idea what. But he is very determined to be whatever his new owners want because the alternative is being kicked back to that overgrown housefly. He's rather understandably homesick, overwhelmed, scared, and worried about his mom that's still in slavery and these government agents are interrogating him as to his suitability to be their ultimate living weapon to smite their enemies and ensure their eternal hegemony. (Dead Sith are a good thing...even if this whole "turn a kid into a living weapon" idea is getting into the question of ends justifying means) And we know with dramatic irony it's not gonna end well.

But they refuse him to his face because he's acting like a nine year old kid. I didn't see anything possessive or some desire to control everything. He was just a kid at that point. It looks like they only made an exception because an honest to Force Sith kills Tinfoil Hat, which makes them think "Well, shit. Guess we need a Sith killer." (And this happens while they are enforcing the law on behalf of the government to put the ruler they favor - Padme - back in power). None of this seems to be about Anakin's well being, but the Order's need for an effective weapon to maintain the crumbling Republic and smite their enemy.

And I can’t believe I keep having say this but the Sith are the bad guys. Their ideology is based on the a Darwinian belief and Nazism.

Sith (and Sith adjacent) are such an absolute, horrible worst case scenario that just about any means to exterminate them and their influence from the galaxy, no matter how cold blooded and brutal, can be justified. And if the only way to prevent Sith was to round up every Force Sensitive child, isolate them from society, and subject them to intense psychological conditioning so that they are incapable of betrayal, then it's justified.

And considering how all of this child conscription and questionable institutional care damages the psyches of its recruits so much that they have to come up with this arrogant justification of the Jedi Order being the wisest, most powerful, knowledgeable, and benevolent organization in the universe in order to cope with the trauma of being taken from their families and being trained as expendable government agents for a corrupt Republic, and that arrogance ends up leading to their own downfall and the rise to power of the Sith anyways, I would say that it actually wouldn't be so justified.

As for your tirade about Anakin‘s mother, yes she had every right to consent. She’s his mother. She literally told the Jedi to take her son away. And she knew exactly what he was getting into. And Anakin very enthusiastically consented. I get the impression that you did not pay attention to the movie whatsoever. Which would explain your very dubious claims and downright lies.

As for your nonsense about child conscription first of all trauma? There is no trauma. That’s a fan made concept no where in canon is that ever shown. We see them is very happy and very content. And every time the child is given up to the Jedi, it is given with the express consent of the parents with the full knowledge that they are going to be raised by the order, there is no coercion no trauma nothing. Your head canon is simply that a head canon that is not supported by the text at all. Why the hell do you even watch Star Wars? If you basically look at the Jedi, who are undisputably by its own text, the contested good guys and seemed to think that they are corrupt organization that traumatizes children with none of that is true. What the hell I get the person that you people just for some reason have religious trauma that you want to put on the Jedi. When none of that is supported by the texts at all.

“Their arrogance led to their own downfall.” Yes let’s the evil religious order that literally controls the government…. You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

What do you suppose would have happened if Qui Gon had taken Anakin without buying his freedom first? Apart from the whole *bomb in his head* thing - he'd have been arrested for "stealing" a slave. Yeah, you can steal another sentient being- slavery is messed up.

When Anakin learns his mother hasn't been freed and isn't coming with him he is very, very obviously *not* happy. You must've watched TPM blindfolded to not notice how upset he is when he realised Qui Gon had only freed *him* and he had to leave his mom.

There's also a scene on Padme's ship a little later where Padme find him *crying*. Kids don't cry when they're happy. Anakin wasn't happy leaving his mother and going halfway across the galaxy with near total strangers or being a Jedi, as it turned out.

You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

That was really your argument, you schmuck? You going to try and lecture a Jew on antisemitism too? Yeah- shut up and listen: you're an idiot. Appropriating racism to try and shut people down because you don't have an argument: its as bad as screaming "Nazi!" The Jedi being a minority doesn't mean a thing. Minorities can be and have been part of the government and had enormous political influence. Its happened in multiple societies and cultures.

A few examples include:

Samurai: an elite warrior group who served as military retainers and eventually feudal Lords in their own right. Also a minority- there were no more than than a few thousand Samurai out of a population of millions.

Mamluks: Slave soldiers in Medieval MENA and Eastern Europe. Ended up creating their own Sultanate. A minority.

Knights Templar: Warrior monastic order which operated in Medieval Levant and Europe. Elite warriors, bankers, landowners and advisors to Kings and rulers. A minority- also one of the major inspirations for the Jedi according to George Lucas. Although they were also modelled on Samurai too.

Shaolin Monks- Warrior monks in Medieval Japan. Became involved in many major conflicts.

So yeah- you can be a minority and still be involved in politics Its not just possible, its common. So let's cut the crap and say that "the Jedi are a minority therefore they can't do anything politically or morally questionable, yeah? The Sith aren't the people in Star Wars who we see

Commisioning and leading an army of slave soldiers

Recruiting babies and getting them killed on the battlefield aged 12

Leaving Padawans for dead on training exercizes to be hunted for sport by locals

Allowing shady politicians to have unsupervised access to minors in their care.

Overriding people's consent with mind tricks to get what they want

Mind r*ping prisoners

Burning Geonosian nest hives whilst cracking sick jokes about "killing bugs"

Its the Jedi we see doing those things. Actions speak louder than words, and that's why people say the Jedi aren't are pure and righteous as thy claim to be: because what we *see* of their actions doesn't align with it.

Secondly he was happy to fulfill his dream. He was just sad his mother couldn’t come but he did understand why. And also Jinn tried to free Shmi. Guess again you didn’t pay attention.

And yes I do use antisemitism in the argument because the very basis of it ie a minority religious group is controlling the government is being used in this argument. Just because you don’t like that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Also almost all the groups you mentioned were landed military elites not monks. And the Shaolin only had power due to being part of a religious majority….Buddhism you might have heard of it.

Now let me break down things point by point.

1. One Jedi without anyone’s knowledge or consent did that. And it was acknowledged as wrong

2. They didn’t…they were given to the Order before the war started and were drafted in later.

3. They didn’t those Padawans were kidnapped and that was illegal. Duh. Clearly didn’t pay attention to the episode

4. Grooming is kept secret for a reason and Palpatine used his power to force the issue…wow not paying attention again.

5. “The Force works on the weak minded”….its the only thing that’s murky in terms of consent as seen in the movie. I’m given to understand that both in Legends and canon is that it just convinces someone to do something that was on their mind not coerces their free will.

6. And that was depicted as wrong in show and wasn’t repeated constantly.

7. That was George and yes that was wrong and was semi rectified. And mostly that was the clones cracking those jokes. And yes it was messed up but it was rectified

Next you’ll tell me that the Sith aren’t the bad guys.

Hannah was allowed to visit Samuel at least once a year and give him a new tunic on the Pilgrim Feasts. Jedi don't allow parents to visit their children.

Eli didn't force Hannah to give up her son. The Jedi would have. HaShem is not a control freak who hates families and tries to break up the unique bond between parents and children because He is insecure.

Do try not to bring down my religion to the level of whatever hideous monstrosity you follow.

Also almost all the groups you mentioned were landed military elites not monks.

How do you think enslaved children like the Mamluks became landed military elites?

I note you missed out the Templars - who were very much a monastic order. Very revealing.

Now let's move on

1: It wasn't acknowledged as wrong. They all led Clones into battle

2: "Don't put children in combat" isn't a hard concept to grasp

3: The Padawans were kidnapped but their Masters made no attempt to look for them and abandoned them to their fate. They openly say this. You clearly didn't register the fact.

4: "Palpatine used his power to Force the issue" is not an excuse for the Jedi to forget their duty of care to a vulnerable child. If I gave a child to an abuser because he pulled rank on me I am an enabler.

5: If you have to go to Legends you have already lost the argument. Canon clearly shows mind tricks overriding people's free will

6: Nope

He was NOT, actually. He abused you. He lied to you. He abandoned you to die. He betrayed you. He manipulated you against the Jedi. He tried to kill you.

He was the WORST possible Master you could've ever had. Wow, cool, he made a few recordings for you. What a fucking angel. Maybe it would've meant something if he hadn't then decided your life was absolutely fucking WORTHLESS to him.

Forgiving Anakin does not have to mean pretending he was a good person. Forgiving Anakin does not mean you have to retcon your own history to act like he was in fact actually a good Master when he WASN'T. The stuff he did later DOES STILL COUNT. He WAS still a bad person and a bad master who decided his own Padawan wasn't worth saving in the end. THAT STILL GOES INTO THE EQUATION.

Nooo - she must've been subject to some form of sinister Mind Control. Oh and in addition to that they told Anakin to leave her for dead twice (because that is standard Jedi policy with any Padawan missing for more than 10 seconds apparently). Its both vaguely amusing but mostly concerning that Jedi Stans think someone leaving the group whose actions are far more consistent with actual abusers is worse the staying with the person whose consistently looks out for, protects and diligently trains his young charge so she can take care of herself.

And Reva? Lol- girl who *checks notes* - willingly chose to become an Inquisitor. As per Tales of the Empire candidates have to kill each other just to qualify for Inquisitor training.

Reva then murders her way to promotion (again we see this) and and literally lives in a castle with the bodies of petrified children decorating its walls. She is already a mass-murderer. Its impossible for her to have been in the job without being a mass murderer. Its literally a requirement.

Let me explain. In Star Wars, when the Jedi referred to attachment, they are referring to what Buddhism would refer to as in a literal translation an obsession. Attachments is the most closest western equivalent to the direct translation. And these attachments are basically the cause of suffering. Why? Because they prevent you from spiritual enlightenment. These aren’t things like family and friends. These are unhealthy obsessions that crippled you and make you unable to progress spiritually.

And the other inspiration for the Jedi Christianity has a similar explanation, although with a different theological implication, but the general principle is the same. In Christianity there is the idea that this world is transient. It’s not permanent nor are Christians supposed to get attached to it. The idea is is that they live in this world, but they are not of this world. That is not to say you can’t enjoy the things of this world like going out to the movies or having a good meal or spending time with friends and family. But it’s being aware that at any time it can go away. Either through misfortune, such as poverty or even death. Clinging onto the attachment of this world leads to spiritual ruin because you cease to focus on the supernatural such their relationship with God and how it affects their relationships with others and focusing on the superficial and harmful things. Again, it’s similar to Buddhism, but their solution is slightly different than Buddhism.

"Attachment means obsession, or being possessive or being toxic and stifling, treating someone else like an object."

Makes sense.

"We have to take small children with this natural divergence away from their families and lock them up in this tower were they will never see or hear from them again."

Okay, this is the kind of thing you expect from the guys running the show in a dystopian sci-fi novel - people we need to run way from or fight against.

But you are supposed to be the good guys here. You are supposed to be these magnificent paragons - so why the dystopian tactic?

"Because these small children loving their caretakers IS attachment - toxic, possessive, and obsessive."

And I'm out.

These guys consider the first and most fundamental an infant develops as "toxic, possessive obsession?!" This sets a very low bar for speculating what these people would consider acceptable.

The first love between a parent and a child in the Star Wars galaxy is realizing that the Force is calling them to greater things. The Jedi are one of the many religions that follow the Force. Parents willingly give up their child because the Jedi are a monastic order. Monastic orders tend to cut them themselves off from the world because they have a different focus. And if the Jedi ask and parents accept it of that’s part of the deal. Nothing about that screams dystopia. The parents choose to send their children off to a place where they can learn. Also, no, they don’t lock them away. They know about their culture and they know about their people and when they’re old enough, they can seek out their parents and talk to them. Nothing is stopping them.

Oh, they can wear costumes and go on theme park adventures to "experience and keep" their native culture so long as they come back home to Coruscant and get on with the business of killing Sith and propping up the Republic ruling class. Whoopee Doo, how generous!

Now if we're talking an abuse/neglect/abandonment situation where the parents forfeited the honor? Okay, totally can get behind Jedi intervention and having a setup for that.

However, sending a heavily armed sorcerer with full government backing to bang on the door of some otherwise perfectly loving family who didn't plan to give up their child to this agent, never to see or hear from them again? Their child will be dead to them and they will be dead to the child, all so this stranger can melt them down and forge them into perfect hands and eyes for the Almighty Order? Yeah.

This isn’t like the Time Lord Academy on Gallifrey. They are given a free choice and yes it is considered an honor because the child is going to be a keeper of the peace

People you really don’t understand why they said he was of the dark side. It wasn’t the fact that he couldn’t forget his mother “on command.” It was the fact that he had attachments. He had an unnatural obsession with control.

But then the resident Tinfoil Hat gets a look at Anakin and gets it in his head that this small kid could be their fabled ultimate anti-Sith living weapon. Okay, dead Sith - VERY good thing. Dead Sith means the Jedi and the Republic will never have to worry about their old enemies ever again. Pax Republica forever - yay!

We know with dramatic irony this isn't gonna end well.

So Tinfoil Hat wins the kid in a sports bet and hauls him away from everything he knew. Technically, Anakin is "free," but the kid has zero concept of legal freedom or means of autonomous living. This is not for the benefit of the kid, however, but the benefit of the powerful Jedi Order and the Republic they serve as government agents.

So this kid is all by himself being interrogated for hours by a dozen creepy old men (essentially his potential new owners) who want him for something but the kid has no idea what. But he is very determined to be whatever his new owners want because the alternative is being kicked back to that overgrown housefly. He's rather understandably homesick, overwhelmed, scared, and worried about his mom that's still in slavery and these government agents are interrogating him as to his suitability to be their ultimate living weapon to smite their enemies and ensure their eternal hegemony. (Dead Sith are a good thing...even if this whole "turn a kid into a living weapon" idea is getting into the question of ends justifying means) And we know with dramatic irony it's not gonna end well.

But they refuse him to his face because he's acting like a nine year old kid. I didn't see anything possessive or some desire to control everything. He was just a kid at that point. It looks like they only made an exception because an honest to Force Sith kills Tinfoil Hat, which makes them think "Well, shit. Guess we need a Sith killer." (And this happens while they are enforcing the law on behalf of the government to put the ruler they favor - Padme - back in power). None of this seems to be about Anakin's well being, but the Order's need for an effective weapon to maintain the crumbling Republic and smite their enemy.

And I can’t believe I keep having say this but the Sith are the bad guys. Their ideology is based on the a Darwinian belief and Nazism.

Sith (and Sith adjacent) are such an absolute, horrible worst case scenario that just about any means to exterminate them and their influence from the galaxy, no matter how cold blooded and brutal, can be justified. And if the only way to prevent Sith was to round up every Force Sensitive child, isolate them from society, and subject them to intense psychological conditioning so that they are incapable of betrayal, then it's justified.

And considering how all of this child conscription and questionable institutional care damages the psyches of its recruits so much that they have to come up with this arrogant justification of the Jedi Order being the wisest, most powerful, knowledgeable, and benevolent organization in the universe in order to cope with the trauma of being taken from their families and being trained as expendable government agents for a corrupt Republic, and that arrogance ends up leading to their own downfall and the rise to power of the Sith anyways, I would say that it actually wouldn't be so justified.

As for your tirade about Anakin‘s mother, yes she had every right to consent. She’s his mother. She literally told the Jedi to take her son away. And she knew exactly what he was getting into. And Anakin very enthusiastically consented. I get the impression that you did not pay attention to the movie whatsoever. Which would explain your very dubious claims and downright lies.

As for your nonsense about child conscription first of all trauma? There is no trauma. That’s a fan made concept no where in canon is that ever shown. We see them is very happy and very content. And every time the child is given up to the Jedi, it is given with the express consent of the parents with the full knowledge that they are going to be raised by the order, there is no coercion no trauma nothing. Your head canon is simply that a head canon that is not supported by the text at all. Why the hell do you even watch Star Wars? If you basically look at the Jedi, who are undisputably by its own text, the contested good guys and seemed to think that they are corrupt organization that traumatizes children with none of that is true. What the hell I get the person that you people just for some reason have religious trauma that you want to put on the Jedi. When none of that is supported by the texts at all.

“Their arrogance led to their own downfall.” Yes let’s the evil religious order that literally controls the government…. You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

What do you suppose would have happened if Qui Gon had taken Anakin without buying his freedom first? Apart from the whole *bomb in his head* thing - he'd have been arrested for "stealing" a slave. Yeah, you can steal another sentient being- slavery is messed up.

When Anakin learns his mother hasn't been freed and isn't coming with him he is very, very obviously *not* happy. You must've watched TPM blindfolded to not notice how upset he is when he realised Qui Gon had only freed *him* and he had to leave his mom.

There's also a scene on Padme's ship a little later where Padme find him *crying*. Kids don't cry when they're happy. Anakin wasn't happy leaving his mother and going halfway across the galaxy with near total strangers or being a Jedi, as it turned out.

You’re saying a minority religion is somehow “part of the government.” That sounds like real world conspiracies about antisemitism. Like textbook antisemitism.

That was really your argument, you schmuck? You going to try and lecture a Jew on antisemitism too? Yeah- shut up and listen: you're an idiot. Appropriating racism to try and shut people down because you don't have an argument: its as bad as screaming "Nazi!" The Jedi being a minority doesn't mean a thing. Minorities can be and have been part of the government and had enormous political influence. Its happened in multiple societies and cultures.

A few examples include:

Samurai: an elite warrior group who served as military retainers and eventually feudal Lords in their own right. Also a minority- there were no more than than a few thousand Samurai out of a population of millions.

Mamluks: Slave soldiers in Medieval MENA and Eastern Europe. Ended up creating their own Sultanate. A minority.

Knights Templar: Warrior monastic order which operated in Medieval Levant and Europe. Elite warriors, bankers, landowners and advisors to Kings and rulers. A minority- also one of the major inspirations for the Jedi according to George Lucas. Although they were also modelled on Samurai too.

Shaolin Monks- Warrior monks in Medieval Japan. Became involved in many major conflicts.

So yeah- you can be a minority and still be involved in politics Its not just possible, its common. So let's cut the crap and say that "the Jedi are a minority therefore they can't do anything politically or morally questionable, yeah? The Sith aren't the people in Star Wars who we see

Commisioning and leading an army of slave soldiers

Recruiting babies and getting them killed on the battlefield aged 12

Leaving Padawans for dead on training exercizes to be hunted for sport by locals

Allowing shady politicians to have unsupervised access to minors in their care.

Overriding people's consent with mind tricks to get what they want

Mind r*ping prisoners

Burning Geonosian nest hives whilst cracking sick jokes about "killing bugs"

Its the Jedi we see doing those things. Actions speak louder than words, and that's why people say the Jedi aren't are pure and righteous as thy claim to be: because what we *see* of their actions doesn't align with it.

And just to top it all, in Age of Ultron he talks about "ending the war before it starts" which again is what Nick Fury says when he shows Steve Project INSIGHT (just before realiizing what they're actually planning to do with it) Plus the whole *sacrifice x number of people to save the world* is literally a line Pierce says to justify Project INSIGHT (and Quelle Suprise! Tony helped design the weapons used on INSIGHT. Which means he knew about it before Steve did and no doubt gave it his hearty approval)

Who are Thunderbolts if not villains? I don't even know, maybe antiheroes who are trying to redeem themselves, morally gray characters, good people who have done bad things, literally anything lol.

But Walker killed a person!!11! How can you like him?!!1! 😑🙄

Don't they understand how silly it is to hate fictional characters for their bad actions, especially if those characters are antagonists/antiheroes, especially if those actions are considered bad in the story?

Ha, Sam Stans don't even see the difference between a character who hasn't really done anything wrong and someone whose bad actions are not acknowledged or talked about 🤡🤡🤡

I get it nonny.

There's this frankly weird tendency in a lot of fandom spaces towards what can only be called moral puritanism. People think that the fave is tainted by even the vaguest association with anything imperfect or flawed.

The image of the fave must be untarnished. It goes without saying that they can do no wrong, but as an extension of that, anyone who is in opposition to the fave is vilifed as the Devil Incarnate. This serves to enhanced the fave's reputation for virtue and moral purity.

In the context of the MCU such an idea is absolely ridiculous. There's actually an IGN Opinion Piece Sam Stans are obsessed with which is just regurgiating all their moaning, and them lambasting Bucky for assocating with "morally gray" characters.

As someone reminded them in the comments, this is the MCU not a Disney Fairytale Kingdom inhabited by virtuous people. The MCU is and has always been inhabited by flawed and imperfect, messed up people with bad backgrounds.

And fans like it that way. Flawed characters are more relatable. They're not evil, they're just human. Sam Stans need to realize this: they also need to realize the OG Avengers weren't so perfect either. Tony Stark, for example, killed far more people than Bucky, Walker, Yelena and Ava put together.

He also shot Sam in the face, if we're playing that game. Yet they defend Stark to the hilt, all whilst crying about Bucky "betraying" him and Walker having tried to kill him.