they stumble that run fast

It is true that to become an atheist, all you have to do is read the bible, I guess

@postingtime2 I asked you to cite specific scriptures, not just give untrue generalizations which all atheists do when they have no ability to prove what they’re trying to claim. Nice try but until you actually can prove your argument, there’s no discussion here.

What is with these, quite frankly, insane takes about Vax not submitting due to his ego and wanting to “save face?” Did we all watch the same show? You know, the one where there’s a character who has barely any ego and sacrifices himself for his sister and friends over and over? I mean, if people are not able to understand the hero’s journey to this degree, I fear for the ability to grasp much media at all. When heroism is now being spun as selfish and egotistical, that’s not just a bad take, it’s a dangerous one.

Because yeah, we can say this is fictional and regardless of how people perceive Vax’s actions, it’s how he was written so people should bear with it and not be so offended. However, if you view a character’s act of heroism as inherently selfish, what if a person commits such an act in real life? Would you call them an egotistical person just doing it for vanity? If a solider chooses to leap onto on a grenade for comrades, we don’t say “wow, just doing it for his ego, what a loser.” No we honor such people because of the costs of their sacrifice. Are there some people who “play the hero” for attention? Sure, but that isn’t what this is. This isn’t a commentary on narcissistic manipulation. It’s a character journey that leads to one man standing up to a vile, liar of a villain so others can do the same.

Them writing Vax as a character who doesn’t submit is completely in line with his arc. It’s not about ego or pride when he doesn’t bow to Vecna. For one, the idea people seem to have that they would’ve been able to regroup had Vax given in and Vecna would’ve kept his promise is ludicrous. He’s a villain, since when are you supposed to trust anything a villain says? Especially when he had just admitted to spinning an unholy web of lies for so long to convince them to kill him so he could resurrect. But yeah, sure, that guy would just let Vax go so they could regroup.

Well this ending was kinda confusing for me, not gonna lie. I get it that of course this series is going to go on for a bit so they can’t have him pick a girl right away and need to drag things out but parts just don’t totally make sense. Like Arashiyama saying that she likes him but can’t be marriage material now due to her wanting to become super independent so she can help and support him. Um…did I miss the last few episodes where she felt powerless and then figured out she could support him another way with the abilities she has? And then also that Gero said he doesn’t care if she’s this awesome boss babe, that he likes her as is and is glad she’s there to stand behind him. Plus if people become so independent it then almost can become impossible for them to settle down.

On a similar note, when she said she’d make him fall for her, Gero was flustered but to me it came across like he maybe was interested when he said he’d wait for her. But then later Kinosaki said his reaction in that moment was actually because he felt awkward and couldn’t respond to Arashiyama’s feelings in the way he’d like. Meaning what, he wanted to turn her down? This just makes it appear like Gero was lying when he said he would wait and she’s a potential candidate. I’m still gonna root for Arashiyama to be the end girl but after that final I think that’s a way more remote possibility.

Here’s my thing about the ultimate Vaxleth ending (not Season 4 but when the two are reunited after the campaigns). While I think there’s beauty in how their love story has deep yearning and basically unfolds over so much time, I would love to see a better payoff in the end (if we ever get there in animated form). What I mean by that is, for those who know the campaign, which I’ll admit I’m not as versed in but have tried to keep up as best I can, Vax and Keyleth’s ending is still somewhat bitter-sweet. Yes, he comes back and it appears he’s basically immortal so now he’s the one who will outlive her vs there being the stress of lifespans as before. However, he’s still very much tied to the Matron of Ravens and his duties keep him wrapped up just as much as they did before. So although he can now see Keyleth, being together still isn’t this grand possibility.

Again it reminds me more of Will and Elizabeth, pre-sequel where they released him from the contract. He can only be on land for a day and that’s it. Yes, those two still got married and had a kid in the meantime but they were basically apart. With Vax and Keyleth, we’re given the impression that Keyleth finally mourned him and although she knows a part of her is very much still in love with him, they have to start from scratch, which both are willing to do, but it ends with “every now and then her Champion comes to visit.” While this sounds sweet, if you’re a romantic like me it’s still a bit sad cause an epic romance being rebuilt isn’t going to happen on “every now and then”. That just sounds like casual friends getting together for lunch. And somehow I can’t buy that two people like Keyleth and Vax who had such an intense relationship could either go back to being just friends or stay somewhere in the awkward middle of being in love but never getting married or starting any kind of life together.

Part of me hopes that they use the animated show to add on to this ending or tweak it and make it so there’s a better finality to it. Do they get married? Have children? Does Vax have time to spare and an actual life with Keyleth or is he almost always gone in which case their relationship is mostly one of companionship and familiarity but won’t ever be what it was before? Sincerely hope it’s the former rather than the latter. I know some fans have wondered if Vax is different because it was speculated that Vax changed when he became part of the celestial realm but my hope would be that as he’s with Keyleth it becomes evident that the old Vax is still present and in ways has always been there.

Seems to me that some were almost expecting Vaxleth to have a love story similar to Perc’ahlia when the things is, narratively I wouldn’t want a copy of what we saw with Percy and Vex. I’d say they’re both good because they’re different. Percy and Vex’s love story was incredibly well told and is wonderful in its own right but it’s not similar to what unfolds with Vax and Keyleth. While they wanted to have a love like Percy and Vex, their respective paths made it clear that wasn’t going to happen early on. They’re the star-crossed, deeply in love but tragic Shakespearean lovers as opposed to the more classic yearning and epic declarations of a Jane Austen couple. It’s ships passing in the night, wasted opportunities, dreams unfulfilled and ultimately the reckoning of having to start over. But their struggle is what makes Vaxleth a beautiful love story. Because it shows that love isn’t always about getting swept away in the moment but about choosing the person, over and over, even when it’s uncertain and the road isn’t easy.

While some may be like “why should a one year fling be a lifelong love story?” I’d ask why not? And was it really a one year fling? After all, Vex knew she loved Percy in about the same time but was unwilling to admit it. And they settled down into their married life easily and quickly because they knew there was no one else. I think it’s clear, had Vax not have been in the situation he was with the Matron, he and Keyleth would’ve likely followed the same course. Their “one year fling” would’ve turned into marriage, kids and a whole lifetime of everything they’d wanted together.

Honestly, for all that buildup to having Hinagiku and Sakura see Rosei and Itecho again that was a serious letdown. I was hoping that seeing Rosei again more than anything would be the catalyst for Hinagiku to come back to herself. To stop talking in the third person and saying she doesn’t deserve happiness because it belongs to her other self who “died.” She split her personality due to trauma and a need for self-preservation and yes, there are times where the damage cannot be undone but this is fantasy. Rosei really wanted to “rescue” her in a way he wasn’t able to when they were kids so it would’ve been more poignant had the true Hinagiku come back when she was with him once more, when he did hand her the flower of ice, effectively making her feel truly safe to be herself again. Instead though, quite frankly, by this point it just got uncomfortable. Especially when she says she’s the wrong one and he goes “I know” yet he thanks her and we’re supposed to think this is a love story?

The same could be said for Sakura and Itecho when there was an equal buildup for them, the tension they had in her feeling betrayed and walking away and his obvious feelings towards her. Yet when they meet there was no impact, as she says it felt like he was addressing her like a relative. All the yearning the story had built for both couples went out completely gone the moment they were together which was a complete shame. And I’m really over Sakura and her possessiveness of Hinagiku. If they were just going to keep the kind of unhealthy codependency between the girls where they struggle to let anyone between them, why even bring in Rosei and Itecho there in the end? Cause the reunion with the boys falls flat when again it’s just turned into Sakura wanting to interrupt and then actually doing so later but Hinagiku doesn’t protest.

a lot of the criticism ppl have towards keyleth from s4 applies to many of vax’s actions in s2 and s3

“not trusting vax” he didn’t trust her in s3

“she’s driven by emotions” he is too - hence why he’s the champion and the reason he dies

“she acts without thinking” ummmm yup so does vax

“too trusting. eg believe the whispered one” her whole arc in s3 disproves that entirely

He’s definitely not getting less of the criticism right now strangely 😂The interesting thing about Vaxleth is that they struggle to see things from each others perspectives. Ironically it’s their opposing viewpoints that drove Vax and Keyleth towards one another. He liked how she was kind of goofy but more optimistic and sweet vs his more realistic and combative nature. They challenge one another to see a different side of things in a way they wouldn’t have without the other. So yes that can sometimes come across like they don’t trust each other but fundamentally they do.

Vax choosing to become the Champion wasn’t necessarily an emotional decision. It was him choosing to submit to what he thought was the best course to save Vex’s life and he was willing to take on that burden, again the self-sacrificial kind of thing. With Keyleth though when she submits to Vecna it’s a snap decision she makes. It’s not that she’s even trusting Vecna, it’s that in that moment she likely isn’t thinking it through much at all and is simply blindly hoping her choice would save Vax. Her whole arc was about her parallel to Delilah and how, regardless of what happened, she’d be willing to do anything to save Vax. In that way it contrasts Vax who is willing to sacrifice himself to save his friends, she just wanted him to live. Again, understandable but no less selfish in the thought process. Now as I’ve said in other posts, I don’t think Keyleth herself is selfish at her core. She’s the leader of the Ashari for a reason but this season showed that there’s very much Keyleth, the Voice of the Tempest and Kiki, the young woman deeply in love. Unlike the others who are better coming to grips with reconciling both sides of themselves and holding them in tension, Keyleth is still struggling with this and because of that struggle she can make these kinds of weighty decisions.

i feel sometimes his love and devotion is shown to be greater to vex than keyleth (i think that’s often as percy and vex are the more nurtured/invested and thoroughly explored couple by the show runners so keyleth and vax dont feel as explored and more flat)

vax says he is in love with keyleth and wants a future with her but always does/choses the option that shows the opposite of that in his actions throughout the seasons. also when he is upset that he doesn’t want to die talking to percy - he never mentioned leaving keyleth but you have keyleth sobbing about him dying in the same scene. paired with vax’s other actions, it all makes the relationship feel incredibly imbalanced and kind of one sided

I’m really not sure why people feel this way when he went on her Aramente with her which was entirely about devoting all his time to something that was solely about her. In the beginning of their relationship he denies his feelings when she doesn’t want to be with him and then even after she kisses him, he tries not to continue when he has the vision of her being alone after everyone’s death because he doesn’t want her to be in pain. When they’re together he encourages her and is her biggest cheerleader. He’s the first one to look after her when she’s injured and hurt. And Delilah could only show him the vision of the future he could’ve had with Keyleth, including marriage and a family with children, if that’s something he has dreamed of in the first place. So no, I disagree about his devotion to Keyleth being less strong than that for Vex.

Just because he didn’t mention that he would miss her or he wasn’t shown breaking down and crying about being separated from Keyleth doesn’t mean he lacks devotion. For one, men just don’t tend to do this. While media today has kind of feminized men and made them have these big gushy emotional declarations or crying moments, that’s really not realistic. Men tend to show things in other ways like how Vax is portrayed being the fixer and the one to comfort Keyleth when she’s distressed. He’s not going to seek out comfort himself. His moment with Percy was a rare sign of vulnerability to the one guy who’d understand and Vax knew he wouldn’t say anything to the girls and burden them with it. He couldn’t say those things to Keyleth because they would’ve only angered her and made her more upset at his predicament. Vax’s love is shown in his bearing of the curse and pushing through to be the person everyone knew him to be right to the end. And love doesn’t always have to be mentioned to be felt. Their relationship isn’t one-sided at all, the way he loves her is just quieter and more steady. He’s sort of been her rock from the beginning and in him keeping that, to me it’s a special kind of devotion.