Indra Althea

(a little companion post to this one)

-liam started writing this song in 2004

-allegedly he admitted that the melody is based on the beatles' "i wanna be your man" (!!), but i haven't found any source for this. you can hear the similarities tho.

-they performed it live on the "don't believe the truth" tour. notably on the late late show in 2005 (first time) and in argentina in 2006 (one of the last times or the last time, liam's voice was wrecked at that point).

-noel seemed to have referencered this song in his solo career, like in "riverman" and "aka what a life".

-what liam and noel have said about it:

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(the big issue, 2005)

-the japanese sleeve notes of "don't believe the truth":

-and then there's this lol:

(spin magazine, 2005)

Noel was and is a fantastic advocate for himself and his right not to endure pain, even possibly going overboard to assert this, according to some people who witnessed his and Liam's dynamic in particular. Whilst from time to time he has blamed himself for being a bad kid, through his actions and the majority of his statements, Noel did not and does not accept being his father's, or anyone's, victim and that should be celebrated.

to me, one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking things about noel and liam is that they’ve always refused to define themselves purely as victims. whether that’s healthy or not is another question entirely, but they’ve both spent their lives trying to push back against what happened to them rather than simply accepting it. they’ve fought, they’ve reacted, they’ve moved forward.

this particular post, though, was only about noel. i probably could have made an equivalent one about liam, because he has obviously endured his own share of physical and emotional suffering, and he was also deeply affected by his relationship with noel that was abusive and toxic in different ways, with a very clear imbalance of power that often worked against him.

my point was simply to reflect on the things that happened to noel and on the way he sometimes seems to perceive himself, which can be surprisingly self-deprecating at times. the comparisons he used to make between himself and sara are a good example of that, with her always being presented as perfect and himself as somehow lesser.

that doesn’t mean i see him as passive, and it certainly doesn’t mean i see liam that way either. recognising harmful patterns or abusive behaviours between them isn’t the same as demonising either brother or reducing one to a victim and the other to a perpetrator. i think they’ve both occupied both roles at different times, albeit in very different ways and within very unequal circumstances.

And rotting teeth is just him abusing drugs too much, not some kind of martyrdom. His fluctuating weight over his life is absolutely normal thing for anyone, his ed is completely your headcanon. He has now normal weight of man of his age

i’ve never argued that liam was somehow exempt from physical suffering or trauma simply because certain things happened to noel, nor have i ever claimed that liam was the sole or even the main reason their relationship became so dysfunctional. quite the opposite, actually. i think noel could be incredibly cruel, and i do believe he carries a huge amount of responsibility – perhaps even most of it – for the unhealthy dynamics that have existed between them for decades. but i also think it’s undeniable that, especially towards the end of oasis, liam was physically and verbally abusive towards noel. we need to stop pretending otherwise. those are words that noel himself has repeatedly used to describe his brother’s behaviour, and frankly, who am i to contradict his own account of what he experienced?

that doesn’t mean noel was incapable of starting fights or engaging in physical confrontations himself. i’ve never claimed that either. but as far as the cricket bat incident goes, it seems pretty clear to me that noel’s reaction came in response to liam’s aggression, the chaos he was creating, and the threatening atmosphere he had already escalated.

i think two things can be true at once: liam was deeply hurt by noel in many, many ways, and noel was also subjected to behaviour from liam that was genuinely violent and destructive (we all need to stop acting like it wasn’t). acknowledging one reality doesn’t erase the other.

does noel have faults? absolutely. loads of them. i’ve never denied that, and i don’t think i’ve ever portrayed him as some kind of innocent victim who bears no responsibility for the way their bound developed. but my original post was never about blame, or about the wrong things noel has done throughout his life. it was about the things that have happened to his body, as i explicitly said: things inflicted by other people, by circumstances, and, yes, sometimes by himself as well.

because yes, drug abuse and a complicated relationship with food are also forms of bodily self-destruction. i was simply pointing out an observable pattern and wondering how noel himself might perceive it all. that’s it. (and, for the record, i never said he had an ed. like… at all?)

so, with all due respect, i don’t really understand the point of your reblog, because it addresses something different from what i was actually talking about. my post wasn’t about about which brother was worse, or who hurt whom more (i’ve made plenty of posts about that already, if you’re interested). it was specifically about noel, his body, and the things his body has endured. bringing liam into a discussion about noel’s relationship with his own physical self honestly doesn’t make much sense to me in this context. and i think it’s equally misleading to take this post as evidence that i somehow believe noel is the sole victim within their dynamic, because that is very much not my position.

and also, it feels a bit strange that i even have to say this, but this is a tumblr post, not a peer-reviewed paper. it’s my interpretation of a public figure based on the things he’s said and done over the years. i’m not claiming to possess some ultimate truth about him.

And why when you talk about Noel it’s always just his reaction to something bad Liam did but never visa versa? The incident with cricket bat was very possibly started by Noel (we have 2 witnesses who said that)? I swear if it was Liam who hit Noel on his head with something heavy you wouldn’t say it was just “a reaction”, he was forced to act this way, you’d probably say that horrible Liam almost killed poor baby Noel. In Barcelona it was Noel who made their fight physical and punched Liam. It was unnecessary, he could’ve just leave but he didn’t. So he’s totally okay with violence as long as he start and win it. Noel never was a wilting flower, he was expelled from school for assaulting his teacher I remind you

And I’ll say again that he didn’t endure Liam’s abuse, they had fights and some of these fights were instigated by Noel’s words and behavior, in the later years of 00s Oasis too. For example when he invited the tabloid press with them on a tour when he knew very well how traumatized Liam was by their treatment of him. Or when he gave away the PG first new collection to charity shops before it was officially released. Some people would call it emotional abuse from Noel, sabotaging Liam’s new business and making him work on a tour with extra stress. Andy Bell said Noel lied about everything that led to the break up

i’ve followed this band for nearly thirteen years. i’ve seen how much liam has suffered because of noel, the ways in which noel has damaged him, the power imbalance between them: the age gap, the financial disparity, the emotional control noel has historically exercised over his brother, and the deeply unhealthy patterns that have defined their bound for decades. i’ve never denied any of that. in fact, i think it’s one of the most devastating aspects of their story, and i genuinely hope that with time noel has learnt to treat liam better and not fall back into those dynamics. but that is simply not what this post was discussing.

And rotting teeth is just him abusing drugs too much, not some kind of martyrdom. His fluctuating weight over his life is absolutely normal thing for anyone, his ed is completely your headcanon. He has now normal weight of man of his age

i’ve never argued that liam was somehow exempt from physical suffering or trauma simply because certain things happened to noel, nor have i ever claimed that liam was the sole or even the main reason their relationship became so dysfunctional. quite the opposite, actually. i think noel could be incredibly cruel, and i do believe he carries a huge amount of responsibility – perhaps even most of it – for the unhealthy dynamics that have existed between them for decades. but i also think it’s undeniable that, especially towards the end of oasis, liam was physically and verbally abusive towards noel. we need to stop pretending otherwise. those are words that noel himself has repeatedly used to describe his brother’s behaviour, and frankly, who am i to contradict his own account of what he experienced?

that doesn’t mean noel was incapable of starting fights or engaging in physical confrontations himself. i’ve never claimed that either. but as far as the cricket bat incident goes, it seems pretty clear to me that noel’s reaction came in response to liam’s aggression, the chaos he was creating, and the threatening atmosphere he had already escalated.

i think two things can be true at once: liam was deeply hurt by noel in many, many ways, and noel was also subjected to behaviour from liam that was genuinely violent and destructive (we all need to stop acting like it wasn’t). acknowledging one reality doesn’t erase the other.

does noel have faults? absolutely. loads of them. i’ve never denied that, and i don’t think i’ve ever portrayed him as some kind of innocent victim who bears no responsibility for the way their bound developed. but my original post was never about blame, or about the wrong things noel has done throughout his life. it was about the things that have happened to his body, as i explicitly said: things inflicted by other people, by circumstances, and, yes, sometimes by himself as well.

because yes, drug abuse and a complicated relationship with food are also forms of bodily self-destruction. i was simply pointing out an observable pattern and wondering how noel himself might perceive it all. that’s it. (and, for the record, i never said he had an ed. like… at all?)

so, with all due respect, i don’t really understand the point of your reblog, because it addresses something different from what i was actually talking about. my post wasn’t about about which brother was worse, or who hurt whom more (i’ve made plenty of posts about that already, if you’re interested). it was specifically about noel, his body, and the things his body has endured. bringing liam into a discussion about noel’s relationship with his own physical self honestly doesn’t make much sense to me in this context. and i think it’s equally misleading to take this post as evidence that i somehow believe noel is the sole victim within their dynamic, because that is very much not my position.

and also, it feels a bit strange that i even have to say this, but this is a tumblr post, not a peer-reviewed paper. it’s my interpretation of a public figure based on the things he’s said and done over the years. i’m not claiming to possess some ultimate truth about him.