my world lies in the clouds...

nettles

alysanne blackwood

sabitha frey

alys rivers

daeron targaryen

tessarion

cregan stark

sara snow (?) if she exists?? cos there are questions around that

jeyne arryn

jessamyn redfort

HOTD: Baela and Rhaena may appear from time to time but don't expect them to be main characters - don't be greedy. You have two whole black women - you're lucky we didn't merge them into one.

HOTD: Rhaenyra's a lunatic now btw. Because DID YOU KNOW when a Targaryen is born the Gods flip a-

It's more accurate to say she is simultaneously whitewashed and demonised (a very impressive and dare I say gymnastic feat of inconsistency on the part of the writers) - but as I would argue, mostly the latter. Especially considering how in the book...

Rhaenyra did not have to decide if she was going to kill Laenor or not... because she was in a loving relationship with a still-alive Harwin Strong at the time. She was not looking to marry Daemon at that point. Laenor was murdered, then the fight at Driftmark happened at his funeral, then Harwin got sent away to Harrenhal, while Rhaenyra got ordered to Dragonstone (to Daemon's delight). Then Harwin and Lyonel died in the fire, then Viserys almost called Rhaenyra home to be his Hand, then he passed her over in favour of Otto to keep Alicent happy, then Rhaenyra responded by marrying Daemon-

Because the difficult decision wasn't whether or not to kill Laenor... it's do I marry this man who may have killed Laenor? At a point in time where she's vulnerable both emotionally and politically - she's lost Harwin, Laena and Laenor, she's been forced away from her position at court, her own father has passed over her as Hand and giftwrapped the kingdom to the Greens. Because where Show Rhaenyra decides to just nope out of King's Landing, Book Rhaenyra has to decide what to do in the difficult situation of being effectively exiled from King's Landing.

Rhaenyra also did not have to decide to kill Jaehaerys... because Daemon (you know, the Rogue Prince) did do that behind her back. Daemon was already in Harrenhal when Luke died. He sent the black council a raven from Harrenhal just as they were sitting down to discuss how to respond. Because the difficult decision wasn't whether or not to murder a child - it's what do I do now that my husband and the father of two of my children has murdered a child? What do I do in the middle of a war where I need every dragon I can get? Heck, that was a difficult decision for Robb Stark, and he and Rickard Karstark weren't even married with kids.

It's interesting to think about how fans perceptions of characters would be radically different if we had book accurate casting.

Emily Carey (aged 18-19 here) is perfectly age-accurate to play an 18-year-old Alicent.

Meanwhile Paddy Considine, at 48, was pushing it a fair bit to play a 29-year-old Viserys.

For reference, Tom Glynn-Carney was 28 while filming Season 2.

So not that he's my fancast for young Paddy or anything, but let's be real. You would all be writing self-insertxVizzy fics. Alicent would have no more agency in the marriage if Viserys was his book age than his show age, but fan perceptions of Viserys would definitely be different if he was played by a young and attractive actor (no offense of course to Paddy, he is serving Targaryen realness etc.)

Or look at Fabian Frankel. He would have been around 27/28 while filming season 1. You were shipping Alicole back when Emily Carey was still in the role, after all.

And then there's Rhaenyra, who was 8 during the events of the first episode, and 9 when Viserys married Alicent.

Milly Alcock, roughly 21 here, is just a tad older than 8-year-old Rhaenyra.

Amelie Child-Villiers would have been 12-13 while filming Rings of Power, so older than Rhaenyra at the very beginning but can pass for younger.

To anyone who thinks a child Rhaenyra wouldn't have been interesting to follow, er... have you read ASOIAF? There are quite a few prominent child POV characters, you may have noticed. And Alicent doesn't automatically become uninteresting if she's 18 rather than 15... or 40.

I mean I get it, Rhaenycent shippers, you prefer the sapphic dynamic in HOTD... and it is absolutely fine to prefer something! But it isn't inherently deeper or more interesting. It isn't objectively better. BFFesbians can be just as one-note as you claim step-mother/daughter relationships are with the wrong writing, and step-mother/daughter relationships can be richly complicated.

Now, I've already gone through the absolute horror that is book Rhaenyra and book Criston

Criston Cole was 22 when he met a 7-year-old Rhaenyra, 23 during the events of the first episode. So Fabian at 27 (pictured here) is a a few years older, but his age gap with Amelie is the same as Criston and Rhaenyra. And yikes. This is why 'Criston the Dad who Stepped Up' posts make me throw up in my mouth. (Also it is so weird that Criston is never recast after the time jump even though the actor is younger than Emma D'Arcy - Criston is 47 during the Dance).

And yes, Daemon has a similar age gap with Rhaenyra

Daemon was 24 during the events of the first episode. Though I would add that Daemon wasn't, contrary to popular opinion by greens, grooming Rhaenyra when she was a young child. There isn't really any indication that he paid particular attention to his 8-year-old niece - he was mostly sulking on Dragonstone in a relationship with an adult Mysaria for starters, and then he was off in the Stepstones till Viserys and Alicent's 5th wedding anniversary tourney.

From then, no I'm not in favour of a 30-year-old Daemon and a 15-year-old Rhaenyra... I am not in favour of childbrideros. But considering he'd been absent from her life between the ages of 8-15, and there is no indication he ever paid any attention to her before then... it is less creepy than Criston Cole being Rhaenyra's shadow from the age of 7, with rumours of a sexual relationship beginning at a point when she would have been 12-14.

By Westeros standards Daemon unfortunately falls into the 'culturally normalised and could have a whole lot worse' category (and tbf, considering the popularity of ships like SanSan...). This isn't a pro-daemyra or anti-daemyra post, I'm not really going to go into their relationship or whether or not it's healthy here, just clarifying that Daemon isn't the Humbert Humbert of this story - that would be Criston (not being Humbert Humbert of course is a very low bar).

And when it comes to the casting and how that impacts audience perceptions... Matt Smith at 39 was too old for both 24 and 30 year-old Daemon (though exquisite in the role of course).

Considering how his haters condemn Daemon for his actions in episode 1 while excusing Aegon for rape and Aemond for murdering Luke (and burning alive many many other children)... Let's have a look at an age-appropriate actor for 24-year-old Daemon and see if that changes anything.

Ooh would you look at that, Ewan Mitchell at 24 while filming S1.

Or Tom at 28 during S2, just two years younger than 30-year-old Daemon. With a face that wins hearts over rape. You telling me if Daemon was his book age you wouldn't be excusing his actions? You wouldn't be taking all the rape apology arguments Aegon stans use and applying them to Daemon's seduction of a 15-year-old Rhaenyra?

Especially if you still had him acting alongside 21-year-old Milly, who was supposed to pass for a 14 to 18-year-old Rhaenyra.

Hopefully though no one would be excusing a younger Daemon played by Tom Glynn-Carney if he had been put against an actual 14/15 year-old like Evie Allen. Who would have been a more age-accurate (and disturbing) casting for Rhaenyra...

Oh wait, how old was Maddie Evans (Dyana) while filming S1 again? 15? Never mind.

Casting teenagers in such scenarios is of course a difficult business - above all the first priority is to protect underage actors. Milly was well-suited to convincingly play Rhaenyra from early teens to late teens, and it's impossible to constantly re-cast for absolute age-accuracy across the time jumps. But it does impact perception - while the first priority is to protect underage actors, the casting of older actors to play teenagers does contribute to society's perceptions of teenage girls in particular as mature adults, rather than children.

Meanwhile the attractiveness of adult male actors - and the younger they are - does indeed shape what some audiences are willing to forgive or excuse. Reactions to Daemon and Viserys by fans (especially green fans) would be radically different if they were cast with their book ages - sorry to say it greens, but your objections to their characters is in large part due to the fact that you are not attracted to DILFS (or leprosy!). And even if we still aged up Rhaenyra like the show does when she first met Criston Cole, reactions to him during the Dance would be vastly different if he was played by a book-accurate 47-year-old. Again, Fabian Frankel is younger than Emma D'arcy.

Of course, the bar for age accurate casting is clear in the way we were supposed to accept Olivia Cooke playing Tom Glynn Carney's mother (they are two years apart).

Because again if Alicent had been 18 at the start of the show and 41 at the start of the dance she would have ceased to be an interesting character or something I guess. Because no one wants an older woman (ew gross!) as the series co-lead alongside a non-binary lead. And because mother/stepdaughter relationships are inherently one-note while BFFesbians are inherently rich, deep and complex... apparently. It has nothing to do with, you know, the writing quality.

Final Round!!! Aegon and Aemond picking fights with kids

Harvey Sadler here is 8/9 years old when he played young Lucerys. Which makes this baby face 2-3 years older than... a six-year-old Book Jacaerys when 10-year-old Aemond was 'pummelling him savagely'.

So yeah, "3 against 1" - the oldest of those 3 being younger than Harvey Sadler. And honestly, 6-year-old Jace has my undying respect for the sheer balls on him to go up against a bigger kid twice his age and size. Does he care that Aemond has just claimed the largest dragon in the world? No, he pushed over his baby brother!

"But it's more interesting if Aemond and Jace are peers" Maybe. If HOTD gave Jace equal screentime and character development perhaps. But they didn't. Any value added by making the antagonist interesting and sympathetic is cancelled out if the cost is ignoring the protagonist or making the protagonist boring (especially in a family civil war drama!).

"But sympathetic Aemond is much more interesting" I am not arguing against making him sympathetic. He is still a kid here, and he still has Aegon to bully him and earn him pity points and trigger a cycle of bullying as he takes out his grievances on others who don't deserve it etc. You don't need to age up his victims or remove sympathy or screentime from them. Sympathy doesn't have to be zero-sum.

Leo Hart was 13 at the time of filming, so the perfect age to play a 12-year-old Jace during the dinner scene where a grown-ass Aegon picks a fight with him over asking Helaena for a dance. Also an accurate age to play a 13-year-old Luke when Aemond murders him.

Elliot Grihault who played teenaged Luke was meanwhile actually closer in age to Book Jace during the dance than Harry Collett (no offence Harry, you still made a more believable teenager than 24-year-old Jon Snow did).

And lest we forget Aegon's true nemesis... 13 year old girls on tiny dragons 'no bigger than a horse'. No offence to a 24-year-old Bethany Antonia, but Shani Smethurst at 12 was perfectly cast to play Baela during the Dance and absolutely would have been the next Arya if this show didn't hate black girls.

Also Ormund (plus his Targaryen relative) for no fucking reason:

When Lady Caswell appeared on the ramparts of her castle to ask for the same terms Lady Merryweather had received, Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer: “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.” Her ladyship could only watch as Bitterbridge was sacked. The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within. Only the bridge remained untouched, as it was required to cross the Mander. The people of the town were put to the sword if they tried to fight or flee, or were driven into the river to drown.

But hey at least with Lady Caswell's highborn children he only... packed them off to Oldtown traumatised and orphaned and in chains.

“Rickon needs you,” Robb said sharply. “He’s only three, he doesn’t understand what’s happening. He thinks everyone has deserted him, so he follows me around all day, clutching my leg and crying. I don’t know what to do with him.” He paused a moment, chewing on his lower lip the way he’d done when he was little. “Mother, I need you too. I’m trying but I can’t … I can’t do it all by myself.” His voice broke with sudden emotion, and Catelyn remembered that he was only fourteen. She wanted to get up and go to him, but Bran was still holding her hand and she could not move.

“Are they ever coming back?” Bran asked him. “Yes,” Robb said with such hope in his voice that Bran knew he was hearing his brother and not just Robb the Lord. “Mother will be home soon. Maybe we can ride out to meet her when she comes. Wouldn’t that surprise her, to see you ahorse?” Even in the dark room, Bran could feel his brother’s smile. “And afterward, we’ll ride north to see the Wall. We won’t even tell Jon we’re coming, we’ll just be there one day, you and me. It will be an adventure.” “An adventure,” Bran repeated wistfully. He heard his brother sob. The room was so dark he could not see the tears on Robb’s face, so he reached out and found his hand. Their fingers twined together.

Mushroom alone was present for these councils, however, and the fool insists that Rhaenyra was still so griefsick over the death of her son Lucerys that she absented herself from the war council, giving over her command to the Sea Snake and his wife, Princess Rhaenys.

East of Blackwater Bay, Queen Rhaenyra was also faring badly. The death of her son Lucerys had been a crushing blow to a woman already broken by pregnancy, labor, and stillbirth. When word reached Dragonstone that Princess Rhaenys had fallen, angry words were exchanged between the queen and Lord Velaryon, who blamed her for his wife’s death.

It was Jace who came to the fore now, late in the year 129 AC.

When the Prince of Dragonstone took his dragon back into the cold autumn sky, he did so with the knowledge that he had won three powerful lords and all their bannermen for his mother. Though his fifteenth nameday was still half a year away, Prince Jacaerys had proved himself a man, and a worthy heir to the Iron Throne.

I will never forgive HOTD for skipping over Rhaenyra's grief and doing Jace so dirty... just as I'll never forgive GOT for ageing up Robb and missing the whole point of his character.

GRRM keeps writing 14-year-old big brothers who are forced to grow up too quickly and the shows keep going "nah". HOTD wanted Rhaenyra to just get over Luke and sneak out to hook up with Alicent and kiss Mysaria, while Jace gets nothing to do except pout and be bastardphobic for some reason.

Book Jace had to deal with his baby sister and then his little brother and then his grandmother dying while his mother and grandfather withdrew and fell out in their grief. He had to step up to reconcile them and take care of his little siblings and recruit more dragonriders. Him stepping up was probably what stirred Rhaenyra back to herself, until his death drove her to a darker place. He was, in his mother's words, her "strength and consolation".

So no, making him randomly bastardphobic did not "add depth". It was actually kind of important that he was idealistic and meritocratic and a source of light for Rhaenyra - he was the hope for the future that got snuffed out at the gullet, just as Robb was at the Red Wedding.

In addition to being strong for his mother and little siblings, he would have been dealing with incredible guilt over Luke and Rhaenys. It was his idea to send them as messengers, and he wanted to go to Rooks Rest with Rhaenys. He would have taken to heart Corlys's grief-striken words that he should have been with her. While Jace is (wrongly) considered an adult, the fact that Corlys said "sons", which includes 11-year-old Joffrey, shows this is his grief talking. But it probably hung over Jace as he flew to rescue his little brothers at the Gullet.

As his mission to the Vale and the North takes a lot longer in the book, that also meant he probably would have received news of Luke's death while he was at the Eyrie. He probably wanted to go straight home to hug his mum and cry*. But he had to swallow his grief and continue to White Harbour and Winterfell and make sure it was all worth it, make sure he didn't get his little brother killed for nothing. And then bonded with Cregan Stark, who had also lost a little brother.

But instead we skip over his story in the cold open and then spend the episode with Aegon and the Aegon Goons. And once the funeral is done he gets to have one other mention of his grief with a simple "I miss Luke-" before the scene cuts straight to Aemond having psychosexual issues in a brothel. But the show is so biased in favour of team black-

*As much as I like the above scene of Jace coming home and trying to play the responsible heir before breaking and falling into his mother's arms... imagine how that would have hit if we had to wait a couple of episodes for that reunion. Imagine the catharsis of Jace finally being able to put down his responsibilities after weeks of grieving alone and just wanting his mum.

Imagine as well if the show actually gave us a book accurate Addam and Alyn, and Jace petitioning to have them legitimised as his brothers. They were close in age to him and Luke, they probably even reminded him of Luke. Maybe they filled the gap Luke left behind, like Robb and the Westerlings:

He seemed to enjoy the company of his bride’s brothers, as well; young Rollam his squire and Ser Raynald his standard-bearer. They are standing in the boots of those he’s lost, Catelyn realized when she watched them together. Rollam has taken Bran’s place, and Raynald is part Theon and part Jon Snow. Only with the Westerlings did she see Robb smile, or hear him laugh like the boy he was. To the others he was always the King in the North, head bowed beneath the weight of the crown even when his brows were bare.

Imagine how Rhaenyra would have felt to see Luke replaced.

Imagine how the show could have adapted Addam going to save Alyn when he nearly gets himself killed looking for a wild dragon. Imagine Jace quickly giving instructing Addam on how to fly for the first time, imagine him joining the search to cover more ground. Imagine his reaction when Addam brings his little brother back alive. He would have been thinking of Luke, how he failed to keep him safe. He would have been thinking about it when he flew to save Viserys. His last thoughts as he sank beneath the waves would have been that he failed.

At first she collapses, she almost gives up, too grief-sick and terrified of losing anymore children to take action. Her heir steps up to be her strength, to be diplomatic and meritocratic and conciliatory and hopeful.

With his loss she hardens, her fears burning away, leaving her rage and hatred, her heart where her sons used to be turning to stone. Then she slips into paranoia, determined to eliminate any threat to her remaining children, alienating allies in a time of crisis, destroying Jace's legacy in the process... only to lose another child anyway.

Then she breaks. She clutches her last son tightly. She sells her crown to keep him safe. She despairs and weeps. Finally she clings to one last hope, one last chance of strength - a dragon. The last thing she hears is her child screaming for her to flee.

Condal, taking notes from Benioff and Weiss: What if this crazy selfish bitch drank her own Kool-Aid, became a religious fanatic, and starting herding people en masse to be burnt and eaten alive?

Bastard blood shed at war, her venomous stepmother says, and she should have executed her. She has every right to, she said she would, she never offered to pardon her like she did her half-siblings (and four dead children in, that pardon is long dead save for Helaena) but when it came to it she couldn't bring herself to finally kill her. Out of love for her father she says, even though it hurts to remember how he kept choosing her again and again, and how he sent her away to keep her stepmother happy, and also she was almost her mother once and also she killed her children and mocks their deaths to her face.

In the midst of all this she is faced with the dilemma of rewarding two powerful dragonriders, while not alienating the lords. Her advisors pull her two ways, and her choice backfires, resulting in the most horrifying war crime of the dance. Her council panics, and clamor for her to turn against two easy classist targets for paranoia, two bastards, two lowborn, both dragonriders, both potentially as dangerous as the Two Betrayers, and she's started to see threats everywhere, and if her rule falls her children die, and she won't lose another child, and fuck it Addam is standing where Jace should be, and Nettles is in her husband's bed, and Lady Misery whispers and whispers-

Condal: How about she never interacts with her children, makes heart eyes at Alicent, does stupid shit like feed rats to the rich and murder the pope, goes off the deep end into religious fanaticism over some prophecy, and is 'rhaenyra the cruel' to literally anyone but the woman who got her children killed, including racially abusing her stepdaughter because black suffering by characters we never give decent screentime to is just a prop to us regardless of whether it makes any sense at all.

Also F&B: Here is a story of a mother destroyed by the psychological torture of having to choose which child to watch die. She refuses to eat, refuses to bathe, she can't bear to look at the child she chose to die anymore, too wracked with guilt, she probably never even held him one last time before he was spirited away, supposedly to safety. She'll never the get the chance again. They say his little body was ripped apart. She never even looked at him. He didn't even understand why his mother went away. She never held him and they say the mob ripped him apart-

HOTD, taking notes from Benioff & Weiss:

Uh-oh, Ambitious Woman Alert! Let's hope no one rings any bells!

Yes, that has been set up. I could tell by how she was reading history books, holding a sword and kissing women. Classic religious fanatic behaviour.

Ah of course, those crazy targs believing in their divine right to rule! Literally no other noble in this feudal society believes they have a divine right to exploit their peasants or expect absolute fealty from their vassals - just the evil nasty targs. Everyone else is a pro-Geneva Convention benevolent feudal overlord from the Downton Abbey School of Pro-Aristocracy Propaganda!

And 'staging a massacre' - wow, love how the showrunners read the bit in the book where Jace meritocratically advocates for fellow bastards and suggests "how about we give any bastards who feel brave enough the opportunity to try claiming a dragon - taking the risk out of their own free will" and went "let's frame this as religious nutcase Rhaenyra staging a massacre".

vs

Show Jeyne Arryn: I don't have time to consider familial ties, solidarity from shared experiences or the wider ramifications for female succession, where the fuck is my dragon?

Rhaena: Should have read the fine print bitch.

Add in the context that female inheritance at that point had been under attack ever since the Grand Council at Harrenhal. The longstanding tradition of the Andals and the First Men - that though a son may come before a daughter, a daughter comes before an uncle - was ignored by the lords assembled there. Rhaenys had been the rightful queen by all laws and traditions. Vaemond had then used the precedent set by the Grand Council to put himself forward as heir to Driftmark ahead of Baela and Rhaena (who at that point had been betrothed to Jace and Luke since infancy, an arrangement that was Laena's idea to help her friend and brother out, so no, Rhaenyra was not usurping her stepdaughters - Vaemond was essentially usurping Rhaena by contesting her betrothed).

So with that context, it's no wonder Jeyne Arryn backed Rhaenyra. It's no wonder that Lady Tyrell also sent this iconic 'fuck you' as an excuse not to send any aid to the Greens:

Little Lord Tyrell’s mother wrote to say that she had reason to doubt the loyalty of her son’s bannermen, and “being a mere woman, am not myself fit to lead a host to war.”

Icon.

"B-But what about Rosby and Stokeworth?" Here's my breakdown on Rosby and Stokeworth - in sum, no, Rhaenyra was not in a position to roll out any alienating radical reforms in the middle of a civil war.

Rhaenyra allied with Dalton Greyjoy did she? The Greens tried that too! And in the end they allied with the Triarchy - that other group of pirates with a long history of kidnap and enslavement.

"B-But what about Nettles?" As my name probably suggests, I am a Nettles girlie. I care very deeply about Nettles (I touch on her and Rhaenyra's treatment of her here). I don't think Jeyne Arryn cares about Nettles anymore than Rhaenyra, or most of the nobility on Rhaenyra's council (except for Corlys, Gerardys and Jace), or any of the Greens - because that's the point of Nettle's character.

The fact is, Rhaenyra doesn't have to be a radical intersectional third wave feminist to gain the support of other highborns who also aren't radical intersectional third wave femininsts. That simply isn't the standard by which Jeyne Arryn is judging Rhaenyra - the precedent of a woman ruling is enough.

Insist all you like that Rhaenyra hypocritically only thought of herself as the exception, that she didn't care about other women. It doesn't change the fact that the Greens are shitty to women too (including to Jaehaera!). It doesn't change the fact that Rhaenyra's ascension would have been a STEP. At worst, Rhaenyra was just the same as the Greens - but with the added bonus that her ascension would have set a new precedent. It would have redressed the damaging precedent set by the Grand Council.

Add in the general culture of loyalty to the King and taboo of oathbreaking - and no, support for the King's chosen heir isn't actually that controversial in Westeros. This is a world in which the Mad King cooked Rickard Stark alive in his own armour and strangled Brandon Stark while he watched - and Eddard Stark's reaction to the Kingsguard knight who killed Aerys is to denounce him as a Kingslayer. The writers thought they were being clever with that 'stale oaths' line last season - but honour is actually culturally important.

Especially considering Rhaenyra had been heir since she was 8, had made a royal progress that went a whole lot better than the one depicted on HOTD, and the lords had years to get used to her as heir - hence why half the realm did actually support her. The Grand Council had also already set the precedent that tradition can be overturned to crown a man, so why not to crown a woman? Especially when the Greens had dishonourably concealed the King's corpse for 10 days, leaving it to rot while plotting a coup, all to crown a man widely known as being a lazy glutton at best. So yeah, the Greens didn't exactly endear themselves from the start.

As for endangering Jeyne Arryn... literally every house that declares for either side is in danger by this measure. It is logistically impossible for either side to grant every ally a dragon. Add that in the book, the promise of a dragon, and the sending of Tyraxes, was a promise made and followed up on by a 14-year-old boy, not Rhaenyra lol. Rhaenyra at that point in the book is generally agreed to have been absent from her council out of grief - this was a point in the story where a young Jace was trying to step up as heir until his mother recovered. As teenage stumbles go it's better than the mess Daeron makes of Tumbleton.

As for the Supposed Grudge Against Targs...

What is this obsession with insisting that the other noble houses must hold a grudge against the evil colonist Targaryens? While they somehow don't hold a grudge against the Hightower Targaryens and their apparently nice not evil dragons? Is it because you think the Greens are more Westerosi? And the Black's familial ties to House Arryn, House Strong, House Baratheon etc don't count?

The Conquerors weren't doing anything that the lords of Westeros weren't already doing. Their entire involvement in Westeros began when Argilac Durrandon asked for their aid in defeating Harren Hoare, and offered them buffer lands between the riverlands and the stormlands. They decided it wasn't in their political interests to get caught up in the constant cycle of land conquests by rivalling kingdoms - but they decided to play the same game the Kings of Westeros were already playing anyway, only better.

The feelings of the noble houses towards the Targaryens actually varies depending on their unique histories with the Targaryens, including their unique experiences during the conquest. House Tyrell owes their status to the Targaryens, House Hightower is probably still shitty that they weren't made wardens of the Reach instead (maybe that's why Lady Tyrell is so iconic in her fuck you to the Hightowers?). House Tully also owe their position to the Targaryens - and the other riverlords remember who liberated them from Harren Hoare.

House Arryn had a bloodless takeover - albeit with the implied threat of violence. Though it is mostly remembered as the time a Targaryen Queen took an excited little boy for a ride on her dragon. And when that little boy was murdered and usurped by a kinslayer, it was House Targaryen who delivered justice - a justice that the Valemen fully approved of, due to the cultural hatred of kinslayers.

And Then We Get To House Stark-

-Who you also think should hold a grudge against House Targaryen at this point in history. Show Cregan Stark certainly seems shitty, claiming "at least you didn't threaten me with your dragon". I mean we could make a distinction between someone actively threatening you with a dragon and an implied threat - Torrhen Stark simply saw the dragons and that was enough. But implied violence is still coercion, true. The Starks had their fair share of both actual violence and the implied threat of violence, like every other damn house in this feudal world with an army.

Show Cregan also seemed to forget that his ancestor Alaric Stark had already addressed this grudge. With Good Queen Alysanne. You know, wife to Jaehaerys the Conciliator? Those Targaryens who Conciliated? Who used soft power and built roads and overturned the first night and did a bunch of other stuff to fix the wounds left by Maegor the Cruel? The North in particular, especially the smallfolk, have generally positive memories of Good Queen Alysanne - the Queen who strengthened the Night's Watch with the New Gift. She had towns and castles named after her.

Of course, the north is not a monolith. Alaric's son Ellard Stark was less concerned with strengthening the Night's Watch, and resented the transfer of land. It is speculated by Maester Yandel that this grudge caused him to vote against Jaehaerys' choice of heir in the Grand Council, voting for Rhaenys instead. But Jaehaerys was never as popular in the north as Good Queen Alysanne. It's also possible that Ellard Stark voted for Rhaenys because a) the north generally love Good Queen Alysanne b) Alysanne always supported Rhaenys as heir c) Rhaenys was the rightful queen and d)the North have only positive experiences with Targaryen Queens at this point.

Either way, considering Show Cregan's concern with manning the Wall, it didn't quite make sense for him to not mention Good Queen Alysanne. But I imagine Book Cregan had it in mind.

I imagine Book Cregan also had the fact that he was also almost usurped in mind when he supported Rhaenyra over the Greens. Hey would you look at that, both Cregan and Jeyne, the 'asslickers' as you call them, have personal experiences that factor into their decision to back Rhaenyra beyond simply being asslickers!

Cregan was only 13 when his father died, and his uncle took over as his regent. His uncle refused to relinquish power when Cregan turned 16. The fact that Cregan had to have his uncle and cousins imprisoned strongly suggests that they were never going to relinquish control. Cregan was betrayed by his own family. So not only did the Greens probably remind him of his uncle, but Cregan was acutely aware of the political ramifications of allowing coups to go unchallenged.

Because guess what, the North isn't actually a homogenous icescape of isolationist brexiteers like the Show suggests. The Night's Watch sends missives to every King they can during the War of the Five Kings for a reason - the question of who sits the Iron Throne actually impacts the aid and resources they receive. Barba Bolton goes south to beg for food aid for a reason - because even the most pro-independence northerner can recognise that total isolation is unfeasible.

Cregan also had a little brother who died when he was 11, and had recently lost his wife and childhood best friend. I'm sure he and Jace probably bonded over his own very recent loss. Jace also reportedly reminded him of his little brother. Cregan, like Jeyne, had both political and personal reasons to support the Blacks.

The two princes in question:

'bitter rivals' and 'mutual mislike' is so funny to me because yeah Jace and Daeron were the same age but Aemond and Aegon how are you rivals with little kids half your age?

Like this is pre-Driftmark (120 ac). This is before the royal family split. At Driftmark their ages are 13 (Aegon), 10 (Aemond), 6 (Daeron & Jace), 5 (Luke), 3 (Joffrey).

Like when Aegon was, say, 11, was he bitter rivals with a 4 year old Jace? That is a wider age gap than Joffrey Baratheon and Tommen. That's not rivalry that's a big kid bullying a little kid.