#trinity doctrine

Nimrod, Semiramis & Tammuz

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Who Does Jesus Say Is the Only True God: His Father or the Holy Trinity? Part Two

(Part one is posted below part two.)

Additionally, Jesus makes it clear in other Gospel passages that he is not God:

"Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me."

— John 14:1 ASV

If Jesus is God, wouldn't believing in God be the same thing as believing in him? Clearly, both Jesus and the New Testament saints viewed him as someone other than God:

"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, *My God, my God,* why hast thou forsaken me?"

— Mark 15:34 ASV

"Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and *my God* and your God."

— John 20:17 ASV

"Blessed be *the God* and Father *of our Lord Jesus Christ,* who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."

— Ephesians 1:3 ASV

"That *the God* of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him."

— Ephesians 1:17 ASV

Jesus provides other clues that he is not God:

"Immediately aware that power gone forth from him, Jesus turned about in the crowd and said, :Who touched my clothes?" And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing in on you; how can you say, 'Who touched me? '" He looked all around to see who had done it."

— Mark 5:30-32 NRSV

Jesus was not omniscient. He did not know all things. As we see, here, he did not know who it was who had touched him. Or is Mark attempting to deceive his readers into thinking that Jesus didn't know when he actually did? "He looked all around to see who had done it"? Why doesn't Mark say, "He turned and looked directly at her who did it?" Because, even if Jesus had known who it was, he clearly didn't know WHERE she was.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but *the Father only.*"

— Matthew 24:36 ASV

"But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, *but the Father.*"

— Mark 13:32 ASV

Not only does Jesus not know the day or the hour, but notice who else that Jesus seems to say doesn't know: The Holy Spirit. *Only the Father* knows, according to Jesus. Thus, it does not seem likely that either Christ or the Holy Spirit are persons of the Godhead, for God has never lacked any knowledge or wisdom.

Indeed, not only did Jesus not know all things, he was not even all wise (at least not always); nor was he without the need to learn:

"And Jesus advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

— Luke 2:52 ASV

Jesus advanced in wisdom. Not only wisdom, though. He also advanced in favor with God. If Jesus is God; how could he have advanced in favor with God? Can God actually favor himself more than he does?

"Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation; named of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek."

— Hebrews 5:7-10 ASV

And how is it, if Jesus was God, that he learned obedience? How is it that be "became" perfect? If Jesus is God, wouldn't obedience be part of his character? Wouldn't he have been immaculate by nature?

Moreover, rather than asserting that he is equal with the Father, and that his Father's will and his will are entirely identical, Jesus sometimes indicated that his Father has prerogatives that are not his, and that his will was not always precisely the same as the Father's.

"He saith unto them, My cup indeed ye shall drink: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left hand, is not mine to give; but it is for them for whom it hath been prepared of my Father."

— Matthew 20:23 ASV

While Jesus may not have desired anything different from the Father, in this instance (and certainly in many others), here, he acknowledges that he does not have power to do as the woman had asked of him, that only the Father has this authority. Thus, it would appear that his Almightiness isn't quite equall to that of the Father.

"I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

— John 5:30 ASV

Jesus denies the *ability* to do anything on his own. If he is God, then this would seem to have been a lie. Choosing not to use power, in submission to another, is not the same as being unable.

Jesus implied that his will and the Father's was not identical. If his will and the Father's will, at this time, was identical, then it would have been deceitful, at worst, and pointless at best, for Jesus to say "I seek not mine own will"; the mere assertion that he sought the will of the Father would have been more accurate.

"For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

— John 6:38 ASV

Again, if Jesus will was precisely the same as the Father's will, then it would have been more to the point to just say that he had come to do the Father's will.

"And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, *My Father,* if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, *not as I will,* but as thou wilt."

— Matthew 26:39 ASV

"[Jesus was] saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless *not my will,* but thine, be done."

— Luke 22:42 ASV

Clearly, at this point, Jesus' will was to go on living. But, thank God, he submitted to the Father in this matter.

"Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner."

— John 5:19 ASV

"I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

— John 5:30 ASV

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works."

— John 14:10 ASV

Clearly, Jesus does not view himself, here, quite as Almighty," as his Father. If Jesus could not do anything of himself, at that time, then he was not "the almighty" at that time. But, God has always been truly, and in all connections, the Almighty. If Jesus is God, then it would have been closer to the truth for him to have said, "I will not do anything in my own power," rather than to deny that he is God and capable of doing whatsoever he pleases in his own power.

Jesus asserts that the only things he *can* do are those things that he sees the Father doing, and that he does those things in the pattern of how the Father does them; there is nothing, therefore, that is truly original with the son; while everything the Father does *is* truly original. Moreover, Jesus says that it is actually the Father in him that is doing the Father's works, just as it is God in the believer that works (Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:13).

Again, Jesus was not shy about declaring that his Father is greater than him. And, in so doing, as is common when he talks about his God, Jesus says nothing at all about the Holy Spirit in this connection. Does Jesus sound like "the Almighty" in relationship to his Father, when he says:

"My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

— John 10:29 ASV

"Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for *the Father is greater than I.*"

— John 14:28 ASV

If the Father is greater than Jesus, then Jesus can be the Almighty only in the sense that Joseph was almighty in Egypt (Genesis 41:40). But, no one would suggest that Pharaoh and Joseph were essentially the same: a duo in all essential respects. For Pharaoh came from a long line of Phraohs, while Joseph was an untouchable shepherd who was not even an Egyptian.

Again, Jesus is depitcted as praying to his Father. He does not pray to the Holy Spirit. He does not pray to himself. Neither are we told that the Father or the Holy Spirit prayed to Jesus or to each other.

"And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, *My Father,* if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

— Matthew 26:39 ASV

"So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, *Father,* I thank thee that thou heardest me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me."

— John 11:41-42 ASV

"Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; that they may all be one; even as thou, *Father,* art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one; I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me."

— John 17:20-23 ASV

In praying to the Father, Jesus acknowledges that it is his Father who has authority over him. But, if the Father has authority over him, he is not Almighty in relationship to his Father; he can be Almighty only in relationship to the creation over which the Father has granted him all authority. Jesus is resolved to do the Father's will, not to insist upon his own will (and his own will is clearly stated: He did not want to die). He is thankful to the Father for hearing him. And he prays that his followers would be in "us" (he and the Father) in the same way that he is in the Father and the Father is in him. If Jesus is God, will we who are in the Father and the Son be God, too? Indeed, if Jesus can speak of the Father and himself as "us," is it wrong for Trinitarians to speak of their god as "them"?

Clearly the early disciples saw Jesus and God as being two different beings:

"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God."

— Acts 7:55-56 ASV

Trinitarians are often fond of saying that finite sins against an ifinite God require the death of one who is infinite; that, *even if he were to be sinsless,* a finite person can atone for the sins of only one other person. But, the Scriptures don't actually say such things. In fact, they speak quite to the contrary:

"But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the *one man,* Jesus Christ, abound unto the many."

— Romans 5:15 ASV

"For since by man came death, *by man* came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.

— 1 Corinthians 15:21-25 ASV

"For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, *himself man,* Christ Jesus."

— 1 Timothy 2:5 ASV

"And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the *body* of Jesus Christ once for all."

— Hebrews 10:10 NRSV

There is no notion, here, of a God dying for our sins; rather, the only thing that seems to matter in the issue of atonement, justification, forgiveness, and sanctification, is that an unblemished *man* died; that his *body* was sacrificed.

None of this is to deny that it is the Father working in Christ who grants us grace, raises us from the dead, and reconciles us to himself. Nor is it to suggest that Christ is not worthy of our worship (i.e., honor, service, obedience); he is, after all, the exact image of God, the one to whom all authority has been given, whom the Father has *made* King of kings and Lord of lords, the firstborn of creation, the firstborn from the dead, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Almighty.

Jesus is the Almighty representatively; his Father is still greater than him. Many Christians think that his reign as King of kings and Lord of lords will be "forever and ever." But, the Scriptures teaches that, not only is Jesus the Almighty in relationship only to the creation (because someone greater than him gave it to him to be the Almighty over the creation), but that the day will come when Jesus will be subjected to the one who gave it to him to be the Almighty over the creation:

"And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all."

— 1 Corinthians 15:28 ASV

By ”God," the apostle means the Father, and not the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Because, when all things have been subjected to Christ, and prior to Christ being *subjected* to the Father, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit will *already* be all in all. But, that's not enough! The son must present his kingdom to the Father, that He, the only true God, may be all in all.

Going back to the gospels, Matthew clearly seemed to understand that Jesus was not God:

"But when the multitudes saw it, they were afraid, and glorified God, who had given such authority *unto men.*"

— Matthew 9:8 ASV

Matthew does not say, "But when the multitudes saw it, they were afraid, and glorified God, because *they saw* that He had given such authority unto men." So, it *may* be that the words, "who had given such authority unto men" are Matthew's comment, in just the same way as "who knoweth the heart" is Peter's comment in the following verse:

"And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us."

— Acts 15:8

Either way, Matthew agrees that God had *given* such authority to *men.*

Jesus often refered to himself as the Son of God, as well as calling himself the Son of Man. But, while Jesus *never* explicitly refered to himself simply as God, he did refer to himself simply, and in the most unambiguous of terms, as a *man*:

"But now ye seek to kill me, *a man* that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham."

— John 8:40 ASV

That Jesus is a man is something that continued to be affirmed by the early church, and only once do we find a statement nearly as clear that he is "God" (and i will get to that):

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, *a man* approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs *which God did by him* in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know."

— Acts 2:22 ASV

"Inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the *man* whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

— Acts 17:31 ASV

John tells us that the Word was with God; Peter says that God was with Jesus:

"Even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."

— Acts 10:38 ASV

Again, you cannot be the thing that is with you; nor can that which is with you be you *except* representatively (e.g., a photo, or a sculpture, or a drawing).

Often, when pointing out illogical theology, Christians will quote passages they don't really understand, in order to silence opposition. The following are two such verses:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

— Isaiah 55:8-9 ASV

"All things are possible with God."

— Matthew 19:26 & Mark 10:27 ASV

I'm sure you know, there are some things God cannot do, and that Jesus cannot be speaking quite literally; for, the Scriptures tell us some things that God cannot do (Job 34:10; Hebrews 6:18; James 1:13). Additionally, God cannot do other things of which the Scriptures are silent (he cannot make a rock so big that he cannot pick it up, he cannot make a square circle, etc.).

Most people who quote Isaiah 55:8-9 fail to consider that God inspired at least 35 people to document many of his thoughts in 66 "books" of the Scriptures, and that those books were imperfectly translated into the Bibles we use.

"Are we to just believe nonsensical statements in Scripture because we read them in a less than perfect translation of one of the 66 books of holy Scripture? In some cases, yes; in others, we're waranted in looking for another way of understanding what is written than the seeming nonsense that a cursory reading might give us. After all, the same writer who tells us that God's thoughts are not our thoughts also told us that God has said:

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah."

Isaiah 1:18

And so, let us use reason, here, and acknowledge that it makes no sense to identify Christ as God if he's with God *except* to understand that he is God the way the Lincoln Monument is Abraham Lincoln. There are no things that are made that make a devine trinity clearly seen:

"For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse."

— Romans 1:20

If there is, why did no prophet of the Hebrew Scriptures ever declare it?

Jesus is frequently regarded in the Scriptures as the servant of God, and as one who was sent by God:

"Behold, *my servant* whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles."

— Matthew 12:18 ASV

"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his *Servant* Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him."

— Acts 3:13 ASV

"Unto you first God, having raised up his *Servant,* sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

— Acts 3:26 ASV

"For of a truth in this city against thy holy *Servant* Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together."

— Acts 4:27 ASV

"While thy stretchest forth thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of thy holy *Servant* Jesus."

— Acts 4:30 ASV

"He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that *sent* me."

— Matthew 10:40 ASV

"But he answered and said, I was not *sent* but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

— Matthew 15:24 ASV

"Whosoever shall receive one of such little children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth not me, but him that *sent* me."

— Mark 9:37

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised."

— Luke 4:18

"For God *sent* not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him."

— John 3:17

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that *sent* me, and to accomplish his work."

— John 4:34

A servant is quite different from the Lord of the Servant, and one sent is not as great at the one who sends him, as even Jesus admits:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him."

— John 13:16 ASV

The primary difference between a servant and the one he serves is that whatever authority a servant has is GIVEN to him BY THE ONE HE SERVES, and is not his by nature. The Lord of that servant has authority over the servant just by virtue of being able to enforce his will over that servant. Likewise, he who commissions another to go and do his will has authority by which to send the man that the man himself does not have.

Even Jesus' very life was given to him by the Father:

"For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself."

— John 5:26 ASV

"Life was not someting Jesus had always posessed. It was given to him. Jesus does not indicate that he has always had life in himself; rather, he says that the Father gave it to him to have life in himserlf. If something is given, there must be a point in time when it is given. Thus, Christ has not always had life within himself. If Christ has been given to have life within himself, he cannot be eternal (although, he is now indestructible), and thus he cannot be God.

Even his right to judge the world and to command obedience was not Christ's by virtue of his nature. Rather, these, too, were given to him by God. If they were given to him, then they were not always his; something given happens in a place and time. Eternity does not give to eternity; it simply is. But this is not the case with our Lord's authority:

"And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth."

— Matthew 28:18 ASV

"Moreover, there is a reason that is intimately linked to temporality why God gave this authority to Jesus. It was not because Jesus has always existed as God:

and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man."

— John 5:27 ASV

But, although Jesus is the Almighty, he's not the Almighty in the sense that there is no one mightier than him:

"For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him."

— 1 Corinthians 15:27 ASV

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

— 1 Corinthians 11:3 ASV

"And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all."

— 1 Corinthians 15:28 ASV

Bill, elsewhere you said to me, in connection to this issue, "Jesus said,"I am the first and the last." In Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12, 13, Jehovah says he is the first and the last. Since there can be only one first and one last, Jesus is either a bald faced liar, a deranged lunatic, or he is Jehovah."

Again, you seem to want to argue against the many plain statements of the New Testament that state that God and Christ are two, not one; that they are only one in the sense that Christ prayed for the disciples to be one and desired them to be one with he and his Father.

Jesus is indeed the first and the last among men; the expression does not mean that Jesus is chronologically before all things, and chronologically last of all things; for the righteous will inherit imortality; this is the hope of our faith! Among immortals, there can be no last, chronologically speaking. So, saying that he is First and Last is just another way of saying that he has been given all authority over creation, that he has primacy. But, as Scripture tells us, He is exempted from this authority who gave it to him.

And, yet again, Bill, you wrote: "You seem to be intent on sealing your own doom, and for that my heart is broken. At the same time, I am also heart broken seeing your enmity against the Almighty God and Savior Jesus Christ and your zeal in leading others to Hell with you. (Not believing in Hell makes it no less real)."

I appreciate you concern. But, i just think it's absurd to fear monger based on a failure to believe an arcane doctrine, which many who defend it acknowledge is nowhere directly taught. As for hell; that's another discussion. But, just because you believe in it doesn't make it real, either.

The deception of Froom was so successful that most believe that the quotes called “EV” or “Evangelism” are from a book written by Ellen White.

The deceived who try and convince us that Ellen White changed also have agree that God lied to her and His remnant for many decades. No one in their right mind would dare make such a claim! New light CANNOT contradict old light or the old light was a LIE from God. A change from non-Trinitarian to Trinitarian is a total backflip and…

New Post has been published on http://faithessential.com/trinity-means-catholic/

What Does Trinity Means To The Catholic?

To Explain the mystery of the Trinity isn’t easy, but as Catholics, we know and love this fact of three persons in one God. I understand most people would argue, how can there be three persons in one?

The fact is that the mystery of the Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Catholic faith and of the Catholic life

What is the Trinity or Holy Trinity?

Well trinity in Catholic belief is the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. It is said that one God is in three divine people. This word is derived from the Latin word trinitas which means, “Three, a triad.” These are three different people yet they are one. According to the Christian faith, it is said that there is one God in all three while they are treated as three different beings very distinct as declared by the Fourth Lateran Council that,

“It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds”

So in the trinity it is considered that all things come from “the father” through “the son” and into “the holy spirit.”

Here it is to be noticed that the “begetting” used for the son is an intellectual begetting. This begetting of the son comes about in the inner life of God. They are not considered as two separate or different beings rather they are said to be two persons with a distinct relation who remain as one entity.

ESSENCE:

According to the texts of the New Testament the teaching of the Trinity was Matthew 28:19, which made it mandatory that baptization be done, “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”

The holy trinity has four timeless relations with the God,

The Father dynamically and perpetually creates the Son, constituting the person of God, the Father.

The Son is inertly created by the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.

The Father and the Son keenly spirate the Holy Spirit in the one relation contained in the inner life of God that does not constitute a person. That is because the Father and Son are already in relation to each other and constituted as a person in the first two relations. As CCC 240 teaches,

“[The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity] is Son only in relation to his Father.”

The Holy Spirit is passively spirated of the Father and the Son, constituting the person of the Holy Spirit.

This being said, doesn’t mean that there are three different Gods. There is only one God present as three as strongly suggested in the bible that God does exist as three people but is only one divine being. He is only one. As said in the first of the Ten Commandments that, “Thou shall have no other gods before me.” The Shema of the Hebrew Scriptures: “Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Also in the texts of the New Testament:

“The LORD our God is one.”