The name of Captain Flint, though it was strange to me, was well enough known to some there and carried a great weight of terror.

Toby Schmitz: I think when he's right out on the edge of anti-authoritarian wheeling and dealing, you know, I think you see it early on with his scene with Gates when he's baiting him emotionally about being an old man. It's really kind of out there tactics. When he does the same with Mapleton. He basically says, 'I'm lying and you know I'm lying. Do you want to come on board?' That's some balls. Stock broker brass balls. You see it, you see it actually time and time again with Jack. And I think that's when he feels the most alive and I think he's addicted to that kind of ballsy 'I can't believe you're actually putting this on the table.'

I think he likes a long shot. And it could be argued a few characters in this show that they bet on a long shot, but I'm not sure they like betting on long shots. I think they do it because they've got nothing else. I think he lives for it.

With Rogers in the last season, he should be in that office, he should really be in there, kind of sucking up to him. If he played his cards right, he could have feasibly had a red coat uniform 48 hours later and still do what he wanted.

Host: Absolutely. I mean, that's what Rogers obviously wanted. But he can't help himself.

Toby: He would far rather do the thing that Rogers wasn't expecting just to see the look on his face.

Host: He was being an ass before he even realized what Rogers was offering him.

Toby: Yeah, he's addicted to being the kid at the back of the class with the snide comment. And still seeing if he can get a way out on top. But I think that's where he comes alive, where he feels the best.

Host: Wow. So he's probably the only character that, I mean, I feel like everyone else is really fighting against that. Everyone else is trying to create situations where they can control.

Toby: Yeah, there's an anarchic streak to Jack. And I think Chaz [Charles] liked it. I think Anne likes it in him.

Host: No, that makes so much sense, why the two of them would be attracted to that.

Toby: Yeah, those two punks find him appealing, I think, because of that. The smarts and the charm and so on, but there's a lot of people with that, I think it's the fact that at the end of the day he's quite happy to put a dagger into someone you didn't think he was going to, or flip the tables completely.

Host: No, it doesn't seem like it at all.

Toby: Where she is her truest self, I think, and is enjoying her own power the most, even more than Charles, is in battle. She's not just holding it amongst the boys. She's holding it amongst every warrior that you can imagine around that part of the equator. She's true and she's powerful and she's turned on and alive and clear eyed and has no doubts, you know.

I remember Clara once saying very early in the shooting, and she stuck to her guns through the whole shoot, she said, 'I don't see it as psychopathic. I don't see it as damaged. But I think that Anne enjoys watching them die when she kills them. She wants to see them slump. She wants to see the blood leak out of them. She likes seeing their breath stop.'

I was like, 'wow, that's dark.'

And she says, 'well you could see it as dark. Just in a really non-theoretical, non-psychological way, she just does that.'

Host: I'm not sure I see that as dark, actually. I see that as more like living in the moment.

Toby: Really visceral, and it's about feelings and touch and things you really can't even put into words.

Host: I mean, it's like the way someone else would really enjoy like a great glass of scotch and watching the sunset.

Toby: That's right. She's a connoisseur of death.

Host: But you don't feel like it's something that he's doing like with Anne.