#sacrificial!jon

King Stannis once sentenced Mance to die by fire. Jon committed treason and mercy-killed Mance with an arrow because he believed it to be inhumane and cruel.

(gif: arin-arryn)

You’re telling me the same man, Jon Snow, then falls in love and blindly follows a woman who commands the very same thing and burnt Varys in front of him?

Jon Snow disappeared the moment his plot line crossed with Dany’s. His POV has been largely hidden this past season. The Jon Snow I know would not have stood passively and watched a man burn to death. He would have grabbed a bow and arrow and ceased the man’s suffering.

Sansa and Arya told him they didn’t trust Dany. Varys himself expressed his doubt.

And they were right. Will they burn, too?

I am holding out and hoping that he is not the Northern fool the show wants us to believe him to be.

I’m convinced they were going to go with political!Jon right up until these changes in the last episode because otherwise Jon’s behaviour just doesn’t make any sense. The first 5 episoded the “romance” feels very onesided and just uncomfortable, he was placating her the entire time, in 8x05 he was afraid of her and was “unable to return her affections” - from D&D themselves but in the final episode he’s in love with her and justifying her mass murder and saying she can kill him?

The disrespect to Jon Snow’s characterisation just because Emilia and D&D are so far up dany’s ass...

Jon knew there was a Dothraki horde and an army of Unsullied outside who would skewer him and go berserk on the seven kingdoms when they found him with Dany’s dead body. Hell, he was prepared for Drogon to burn him alive when he found him. 

Jon was not reduced to tears because he loved Daenerys. By killing her he became a queenslayer AND a kinslayer, the first of which, as we know, he was later sent to exile for. By killing her he forsook what little hope he had to return to the life he dreamed of at Winterfell to his family. When he discovered Arya was in King’s Landing he was ready to run away and take her home. His family was ALWAYS his first priority.

I think part of the reason he decided to carry out his sentence of exile despite the Unsullied leaving and Bran being king was because he didn’t want Sansa to be saddled with the burden of harboring a queenslayer and a kinslayer. I’ve used this exact reason for him to angst over in fic so it’s not beyond the realm of possibility.

Why do y’all hate us for loving this wolf?!

~ Trae Crowder

I just want to remind everyone, that Jon has not seen Dany’s “bad qualities” yet. The qualities which make them true foils. The qualities which make them total opposite characters with opposite goals.

In my “This is Not a Love Story” posts (which I still haven’t finished yet, yay me) I pointed out that Jon sees nothing that could make him like Dany until episode 5. And that ‘thing’ is the people she surrounds herself with, not herself exactly.

Dany has Jorah Mormont, who Jon knows as a criminal and a coward, as a dear and close friend. Jorah seems to worship her and is loyal to her, so Jon seeing her act so kindly to Jorah could tell Jon that she might be an admirable and forgiving person. That’s the first time he’s like “well maybe she does have a heart, after all.”

Then he sees that she has Theon as an ally. Theon has done great atrocities to House Stark, but it’s Theons actions in helping Sansa escape that keep Jon from going full rage mode and just killing him. (After Jon’s whole “forgiveness” arc from the first episode, this means his anger is really, really boiling for Theon.) So add Theon as another into the list of Dany’s “rag tag team of misfits” that Jon can see, which goes towards Dany’s forgiving nature.

Dany’s trusted Hand is Tyrion, a Lannister and a dwarf. Would an evil qerson who doesn’t care for humanity have a dwarf as her hand? A dwarf who really left an impact on Jon in S1 with his “bastards, cripples and broken things” mindset? She doesn’t care that he’s a Lannister or a dwarf and he’s the highest rank in her council. That could go to her “good heart”.

She has loyal people who used to be slaves, but are not anymore because of Dany’s actions. The speech from Missandei paints the picture clearer for Jon to think Dany is actually a good and kind leader. She inspires the broken.

Dany lets him mine the Dragonglass, even if she’s cold and impolite when she decides to let him.

Jon’s first impression of Dany is that she is entitled, vengeful, and rude. Evidenced by the throne room scene, the imprisonment, her reluctance to refer to him by his title, her insistence that he bend the knee to get anything from her, etc. It’s only when he talks to those around her, and sees who she has allied herself with, that he might have any reason to think she’s not truly a bad ruler.

But while Jon is imprisoned on Dragonstone, he can’t see the “bad things” she does first hand. He’s not there when she burns the Tarlys alive for not kneeling. He’s not there to see her growing paranoia at her council. He’s not there to see the total destruction her dragons and Dothraki army can cause to human soldiers. On Dragonstone, all he sees is loyal followers, an affinity for outcasts, and mother fucking dragons.

When Dany comes to save them from the Wight Hunt, Jon sees a perfect weapon against the Night King, and he sees a woman willing to go into battle herself to save someone who has been reluctant to bow to her.

In the beginning Jon saw some of her bad qualities. He saw a spoiled girl sitting on a throne demanding him to kneel. He saw a woman who imprisioned him against his will on an island when he said no. He saw an angry Targaryan lash out at her Hand on a beach and threaten Kings Landing with fire, only to be calmed by Jon’s own words. He saw her fly off on a dragon and come back pretty proud of herself for killing her enemies.

But he didn’t see her when she was on that dragon. He didn’t see her when she’s alone with her council. He didn’t see the cold way she executed those who didn’t kneel.

So I feel like Jon fell into the same mindset as many of her other followers did, and hell, even the viewers did in the earlier seasons. But once he sees her true actions - the burning, the kneeling, the “I will take what’s mine with fire and blood” that might come out in season 8, he will not be able to overlook that.

She is his opposite when it comes to these things. Jon does not want more death. He prefers forgiveness (as shown in his treatment towards the Umbers and Karstarks vs Dany’s treatment of the Tarlys). He didnt want to be King, all he wants is to save Westeros from the incoming Night King, whereas Dany is coming to Westeros to conquer and take back the Iron Throne, and the fight for the Night King is a side distraction. He is focused on one thing, and one thing only, the Night King. Dany is focused on the Throne.

Do you really think that if Jon were there when she burnt the Tarlys that he would have just stood by and watched? Do you really think he would have bent the knee after seeing that?

I mean, the more and more I analyze their actual scenes together, the more I’m convinced there is some version of political!Jon or sacrificial!Jon going on. She really gave him no other choice but to bend the knee if he wanted her help. Yes, she offered before he officially bent the knee, and this at first really frickin bothered me, but Jon had just seen the true power of her dragons for the first time. He needed to lock that weapon down because it’s literally the only way they could truly win against the Night King, and there’s no better way to make sure she’s doesn’t change her mind later than to kneel and give her what she wants.

When Jon bent the knee, he had not seen her bad qualities. If Dany continues to go dark, to see more Targaryan come out, to lose her self control that so many people have had to keep in check for seasons now, Jon will peace out so fucking fast.

I’m on the fence about true undercover!jon. I don’t flat out deny it but I can’t say I definitively 100% believe in it. I doubt he went down to Dragonstone with the intentions of deceiving her, or with a pre-planned plot with Sansa. My first instinct with Jon is to think he’s sacrificial. That after he saw how un-cooperative Dany is, he knew he was going to have to sacrifice everything he ever wanted to save Westeros from the White Walkers. To give up his power, (ahem ignore his feelings for his half-sister ahem) and get Dany on his side by any means necessary. (This also doesn’t negate the possibility that he thinks the North will reject Dany AND Jon and crown Sansa instead.) I don’t think he loves Dany though. There’s just nothing really there to suggest love. Everything there to suggest he was pushed into a corner.

I’m on mobile and the formatting was being weird so I had to make a new post instead of reblogging. Anyways this is a continuation of my War Council analysis where I looked at Kit’s acting choices.

@whatishonorcompared , @gantzhero29 pointed out how Jon reminded them of LC Mormont and the comparison is pretty spot on to the war council! @scullylikesscience made me think about it in terms of power dynamics.

Lord Commander Mormont sided with Craster and berated Jon because he couldn’t afford to lose/anger Craster.

When you compare it to the power dynamics between Jon, Dany, and Sansa in the war council scene when Jon shuts down Sansa’s concern about the men needing rest... you can infer that:

Dany (like Craster) holds all the power and if angered will use it. She sees it as justifiable because she offered life-saving resources to the North. She still has those resources at her beck and call and uses them as leverage.

Jon (like Lord Commander Mormont) is beholden to Dany and cannot afford to anger her. Even if he disagrees with her there is nothing he can do about it except give in to her wants and demands.

Sansa (like Jon in Craster’s Keep) saw something wrong, raised a complaint, and was vehemently shut down by Jon. And just like Jon in Craster’s Keep, Sansa sees Jon’s siding with Dany as betrayal of the man she believed him to be.

The only problem? Jon did not do for Sansa what LC Mormont did for him (or maybe he did but it was shown off-screen?).

While LC Mormont explained the dire situation that led to them needing Craster, Jon never explains the Dany situation to Sansa.

Jon: Offerings? He’s murdering his own children, he’s a monster.

LC: Aye, many a time that monster has been the difference between life and death for our rangers. [Benjen] among them...Like it or not we need men like Craster.

I’m not saying Dany is a monster like Craster, I’m just comparing the power dynamics here.

If Jon had told Sansa and the others about why he needs to side/placate Dany, they could have helped him so much. But he didn’t.

And so he comes off as a love-blinded fool to his family and OOC to the audience.

Y'all, if D&DB were intending to write an epic fantasy romance to end all romance with Jonerys, they failed. Big time. Tell me the last epic love story you’ve seen on film that didn’t start with a passionate, music-swelling kiss before getting to the dirty dirty. Jon and Dany have not kissed. They went straight to sex.

It also fails a lot of basic writing tips for romance. Whats odd, is that most of the romantic storytelling and hints come from Dany. The behind the scenes featurettes and theory videos on YT always talk about Dany falling in love, how Dany has heart eyes - not Jon. All Dany stans and Jonerys shippers have taken that and assumed or made it about how both of them are in love, without the evidence that Jon actually feels that way.

The showrunners have succeeded in showing a blooming infatuation from Dany, which tells me they know how to do it, but they haven’t done the same for Jon. Which tells me that is on purpose.

strongly agree | agree | neutral | disagree | totally feel the opposite

I feel that maybe up to S8E1 it could've been Pol!Jon (maybe even Ep. 2), but after that, it felt more Sacrificial!Jon for me. The way D&D took away Jon's POV, the way he acted around everyone, especially Daenerys and the Starks... It didn't come across as Pol!Jon at all. What I saw wasn't a King trying to play the Game, I saw a desperate man caught up in a very dangerous situation, trying his damnest to make things work.

Maybe it is as you say, nonny. Maybe D&D just didn't want to commit to what was (fairly) laid out in S7 in favor of making Dany's fall from grace more sympathetic. My opinion? They didn't want to make their main hero do morally dubious things (like Jon lying and playing the Game in order to win the War for the Dawn) because they were afraid the audience would reject that version of him. And they failed completely. They ruined Jon, made him a "Yes, Sir my Queen" kind of man, and they achieved what they were trying to avoid in the first place. But that's my opinion.