#rh'llor

1, cope

2, politically it's a dumb move to kill your singular heir

Hi there!

Yes, definitely. Mel knows that he's not "real". She knows his sword is a scam, because she made it so, she knows he is to "weak" to produce shadow babies. That she is using him, is pretty clear.

I think the more interesting question is "to what end"? To spread the cult of Rh'llor so that the real Azor Ahai will have more followers once he turns up? The man she is praying to see, and all she sees is "snow"?

There can be no doubt that Mel believes in what she does. She believes that the ends justify the means, that the ultimate defence of the "Great Other", the antagonist of her Fire God Rh'llor justifies the manipulation of her brainwashed followers, the seduction of a married man, the assasination with dark magic of people who stand in the way of her "champion" (a man she knows is not yet the real champion). That makes her a very, very dangerous person in my opinion. Someone who is convinced that they their end goal justifies burning people alive is a religious fanatic of the most dangerous sort. In my opinion it is even worse because she knows that at the moment her champion is just someone she will cast aside once the real Azor Ahai turns up.

(Part 2) and then we get Craster murdered during a Night’s Watch revolt during which his last son is saved by three of his wives (and Sam!)… so we get to a later situation in which we have Selyse (the true religious zealot), Shireen, and Mel at the wall with Stannis saying not to listen to rumors that he’s dead and to crown Shireen if they do confirm his death. Then we have a similar situation in which the Night’s Watch revolt and again the Lord Commander is murdered. Of course there are Mel and

(Part 3) Selye who profess their faith (like Craster), and they’re going to hear news of Stannis’s death during the revolt and then decide to sacrifice Shireen to bring Stannis back from the dead… like more of a gender swap of Agamemnon? So then Stannis comes physically back to the wall to find that Shireen was sacrificed (but not “MY child”) and that Mel attributes his daughter’s death to bringing back Jon who she now regards as Azor Ahai and NOT Stannis because Sansa/Mary Magdalene is there.

(Part 4) To me, the show confirmed that Mel believed in Jon as Azor Ahai BECAUSE of Sansa’s arrival, and she was then able to put all the pieces together. Like Mel says to Davis that Jon is IT only after Sansa shows up… and Mel totally backs off of Jon then, and the show never shows her reaction to Sansa in the strategy meeting at Castle Black - but EVERYONE else. Mel doesn’t want to interfere with the Jonsa mojo; she realizes how important they are to each other/their fates/the world’s survival

(Part Five?) So… Stannis shows up, and Mel says, “We killed your daughter… you’re out, and Jon the Bastard is the chosen one.” Am I totally 100% off? Shouldn’t Stannis actually have to actually learn and LIVE with the knowledge? I feel like Agamemnon got off easy in dying… he should have had his kingdom taken and lived with the stigma/any guilt of killing his daughter. So Stannis who asked Davos what one child’s life is worth, shouldn’t he lose his title and think about Shireenfor a lifetime?

(Part Six) I just think Stannis is set-up to suffer long-term and to have his thoughts filled with Shireen and Renly (and his peach!) BTW, this your fairy tale anon! If you got this far, thanks for reading and sorry for rambling!!

Hi there!

Ramble all along! I got it: you think GRRM wants to 'fix' some tales give them a more satisfactory ending. Narrative punishment that feels like justice.

So, Stannis will be punished for believing that he was Azor Ahai and sacrificing people for his belief. And his punishment will be that Mel abandons him, sticks to Jon like she did on the show and Stannis will return to Castle Black only to see his child dead, his wife possibly insane and his priestess worshipping a new God... And then he has to live with that.

I must admit that I like the idea of 'living with his sins' instead of having a quick death that 'releases' him from his guilt. And it would be satisfying.

There are just some problems with Stannis surviving : He has a claim to the Iron Throne, so unless he joins the NW I don't see him surviving.

And I think he will be the one to sacrifice Shireen. The interesting thing is that Stannis is not even a true believer. He just sees that Mel has real power and thus turned to the God who might support him. He knows his sword is fake, he knows Mel prepares a stage for him. So, he will sacrifice his daughter (and I think the show had that right not because of the Others but because of the weather) to a God he doesn't even truly believe in. He believes in Mel's magic but he has no real control over the magic - remember he is not strong enough to make another shadow baby with Mel.

So, what if the magic does not work like Mel wants it to? What if the sacrifice of Shireen is one of the factors that contribute to Jon's resurrection, but accidentally? What if Mel's magic got a boost by the sacrifice but that did not work for Stannis because of the interference of the Old Gods? I think the show made a connection like that without ever spelling it out: Jon was resurrected by Mel when Mel explicitly told Davos that she had never successfully done that ritual. Where does her magic come from if not Shireen's death?

I guess there will be some real classic Greek drama going on. Selyse might even be the one to kill Stannis. I sort of liked Brienne doing it on the show but I think in the books Brienne will have had enough of revenge forever after she will have witnessed Catelyn Stoneheart doing the Kriemhild and killing everyone at the Red Wedding 2.0.

So, I agree with you that Stannis will have to face the consequences of his false claim to be Azor Ahai and although I agree that he'll have to see the full range of his hypocrisy - playing the saviour for his own goals and sacrificing humans to a God he doesn't even really believe in just to get the 'magic' that comes with it - I doubt he'll survive. I can see how him 'living with the true knowledge of how much he did wrong' has its appeal, but he is a contestant für the Throne and he has to die.

Hi there!

I think it is a bit more complicated: My guess is the following: The Chidren of the Forest (who have Earth and Water magic [or mud]) wove magic to get rid of the First Men and created the Others and Ice Magic. Ice Magic needed a balance and that is when the possibility of Fire Magic came into the world. We know that Dark Magic was practiced in Asshai and that the lands around Asshai are still scorched, infertile etc. Asshai is older than Valyria, iirc, and the Fire Magicians might have a connection to Asshai. It would make sense.

In ACOK it is mentioned that magic has become stronger since the birth of Dany's dragons, but I think that magic has become stronger for a while now (otherwise the Others would not have woken). If I had to guess I'd point to Summerhal and Aegon V's possible ill-fated attempt to wake dragons. I think by now, the scales of Fire and Ice Magic are swinging wildly and that the only solution is to get rid of both.

Anyway, Rh'llor has a connection to Fire Magic, Eternal Summer and Azor Ahai and therefore the Fire Magic of the Valyrians aligns in some parts with Rh'llorian faith. But there is an aspect of equality in the Rh'loorian faith that is absent in the classism/racisim of the Valyrians. So I would say that they overlap but are not identical.

We don't know yet, if the priestesses and priests of Rh'llor will worship Dany as it was in the show. If they identify her as Azhor Ahai (which is probably the case as @trinuviel has argued in a series of metas on Dany as Azor Ahai), Dany will have them as faithful followers.

It would be very interesting indeed if a follower of Rh'llor would realize how one dimensional and how dubious their faith is though. "Eternal Summer" is not as good as they think it is.

The reason the Rh'llorian faith takes young slaves for their priestesses and priests is easy though: They want young impressionable children who have nothing left to lose and are bound to be attached to a faith that gives them agency and freedom.

So, I think it is possible that the Rh'llor followers will follow Dany, but I don't think it is a given. I think Melisandre with doubts would be very interesting!