Shrek 2, while a cinematic masterpiece, is also an interesting look at queerness and comp het.
Fiona is married so it's time to reunite with her parents. But instead of marrying a prince, she's married to an ogre. Not just that, but she's also an ogre. (Yes everyone knew she would sometimes be an ogre but that was when she was a child, she didn't know she would be an ogre for the rest of her life, and besides once she met the right prince she would stop being an ogre. She was supposed to stop being an ogre.)
But okay they're both ogres. We can still ask about when they'll have children because even if they're ogres they can still have kids, right? That's what married princes and princesses do so naturally that's what everyone does. Even if ogres might not be great parents (I've heard that ogres eat their young, is that something you people do?) it's still something that should be discussed.
And okay you can stay in Fiona's childhood bedroom filled with all the reminders that hey, everyone thought she was just a princess and princesses marry princes. Her toys left out from the last time she played with them. The prince slays the ogre. The princess offers a token of gratitude for slaying the ogre. Fiona wrote Mrs. Fiona Charming a million times in her diary because what else was she supposed to grow up to be?
And Harold, the Fairy Godmother says, you have to fix this, your kingdom can't be ruled by ogres. You were unfit to rule, to be loved, when you were a frog but I changed you, I made you better, I made you a prince. You know how this works. Think of your daughter's safety.
Shrek goes to the Fairy Godmother and oh honey, ogres don't live happily ever after. It's just not done. It hasn't happened in all of fairy tale history. You have to change the both of you to be happy. You have to present as a prince and a princess. It will be better. You'll fit in better that way. You'll be accepted that way.
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Mike Wheelerâs bedroom isn't just queer-coded, it's politically charged in context â thanks to this print.
Alternative title: Triangles, triangles and more fucking triangles.
The more you look, the clearer it becomes that Mike's bedroom is an absolute masterclass in queer-coded set design.
I probably donât need to address the famous "one way" sign pointing to the closet â that symbolism should be obvious. However, I do want to focus on the print which has been placed (quite intentionally) beneath it:
Relativity (1953) by M. C. Escher
Relativity is one of Escher's most recognizable works. It's a lithograph (originally a woodcut) that depicts a labyrinth of staircases inside a world where the normal laws of gravity do not apply. In fact, it appears to have three centres of gravity occupying the same space.
It plays with dimensions, which is fitting for a show like Stranger Things which is about alternate dimensions.
The three gravitational forces could even be referencing the three known dimensions within Stranger Things: The Rightside Up, The Upside Down, and the mysterious Dimension X.
But beyond that, this image also speaks to Mike's character and psyche. Otherwise, it wouldn't be placed inside his bedroom which represents his personality, privacy, and inner world.
The Meaning of Relativity
Relativity is obviously the state of being relative.
To be relative means that something gains its meaning or significance only when compared to, or understood in relation to, something else.
When you focus on a single point of gravity in Escher's print, the scene appears normal. But when you assess the image as a whole, you notice that something is off.
The three centres of gravity are made interesting when we notice them in relation to each other.
That's why it's called Relativity.
Basically, we're being told that if we want to better understand Mike Wheeler, we need to look at him relatively.
We need to pay attention to the context and look at the bigger picture.
Well, you donât have to tell me twice. Let's zoom back out.
In the bigger picture, the blocking has Mike stood between his bed and the closet. Framed above him is the "one way" sign, and the print of Relativity.
This is our point of interest: the spot our eyes are naturally drawn to.
All Signs Point to The Closet
As it turns out, the "one way" sign is highly relevant to this analysis.
That's because the perceived significance of the "one way" sign is relative.
On its own, a "one way" sign in Mikeâs bedroom is just a traffic sign and nothing more. In relation to the closet, however, it transforms into a visual cue for the state of being "in the closet."
The symbolism of the "one way" sign depends entirely on its relationship to the closet, and Relativity (1953) underscores that fact with humour and cheeky precision.
It's a slapstick fish-to-the-face for anyone still denying the possibility of Mike being queer.
It's as if the set designers are saying, "Look at the sign in relation to the closet. And just to make sure you see it, here's Escher's Relativity sitting right between them to give you instruction."
It's not even hidden in plain sight â it's being pointed to.
And here's the kicker: the sign, the print, and the closet aren't just thematically connected â they are spatially triangulated.
Their relativity is both metaphorical and literal!
It's also queer imagery: Special thanks to costume designer Amy Parris for confirming that the creatives behind Stranger Things are well aware of the triangle's significance in LGBTQ+ history and symbolism. (More on that later).
The Penrose Triangle (Tragedy)
The triangle imagery becomes even more overt: at the centre of Relativity sits an inverted Penrose triangle, also known as the Penrose tribar or impossible triangle.
An impossible shape is a form that can be drawn, but cannot possibly exist in three-dimensional reality â unless it is an optical illusion.
Psychologist Lionel Penrose and his mathematician son Roger Penrose popularised the Penrose triangle in the 1950s, describing it as "impossibility in its purest form".
It's... actually quite tragic, when you think about it.
The impossible triangle suggests that Mike feels trapped in an unsolvable dilemma â caught between two realities (the two-dimensional and the three-dimensional) â with no way to reconcile them.
That's because Mike is at the centre of a dysfunctional love triangle:
The two-dimensional reality that only exists within his mind: a romantic union with Will Byers.
The three-dimensional reality that exists within real life: a romantic relationship with El Hopper.
But remember, the impossible triangle is an optical illusion â it doesn't actually exist.
Like Relativity, when you assess the bigger picture (rather than focusing on a single point) something about this love triangle is⌠off.
It's not just impossible; it's fake.
In Relativity, the three points of gravity hold equal importance. This mirrors the way Mike, Will, and El each contribute equally to sustaining this phony love triangle.
They're all either hiding something or being dishonest.
Their dysfunction comes to a head in the Rink-O-Mania scenes, where it is most obvious. It's the crux of the blame-game that even fans can't resist joining:
Whoâs the real asshole in this love triangle?
Dustin already gave the most succinct answer long ago: they're all being little assholes.
But thatâs the tragedy, isnât it?
These aren't bad people â they're timid teenagers.
The impossible triangle isnât a joke at their expense; it's a reminder that all three are stuck in a structure that canât hold.
And Mike isn't the perpetrator; he's just at the heart of it.
Thatâs why Relativity hangs in his room and not Elâs or Will's: the impossible puzzle is his to solve, because he's the one with the most to lose.
Since the problem with this love triangle is fakery, the only real solution is honesty. Relativity foreshadows that Mike will be the one to break the illusion â to reveal the truth.
The Pink Triangle (Triumph)
Of course, the fact that the triangle in Relativity is inverted is also significant. Maybe not in Escherâs original intention, but certainly for the creators of Stranger Things in relation to Mike Wheeler.
See what I did there?
As Amy Parris has noted, the inverted triangle is queer imagery, because it is linked to the pink triangle.
The pink triangle has a horrific origin:
During the Second World War, it was used in Nazi concentration camps to mark gay men and trans women.
At the time, the inversion signified "sexual inversion" â an outdated, offensive term once used to pathologise homosexuality.
Much like the word queer which was used as a slur before being reclaimed by the LGBTQ+ community, the pink triangle (or inverted triangle), was also reappropriated.
Itâs now a symbol of pride, gay liberation, and equality.
This reclamation began in the 1970s, sparked by Holocaust survivor Heinz Heger's memoir The Men with the Pink Triangle.
In The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975), Dr. Frank-N-Furter famously wears a pink triangle over his heart.
I used the word triumph in my subheading with intention, because triumph implies victory over persistent struggle and enduring resilience.
After the Holocaust, the queer community faced another devastating battle: the AIDS epidemic.
The conservative Reagan administration was infamously silent during the crisis's peak years in the 1980s â and Stranger Things is set squarely within this political backdrop.
In this era, the pink triangle's significance re-emerged, taking on new prominence as a symbol of the ACT UP coalition and the fight against AIDS.
Their slogan?
SILENCE = DEATH
Does this slogan remind you of anything from the show? Because it should. Eddie Munson said something strikingly similar in season 4:
"It's forced conforming... that's what's killing the kids!"
Silence = passivity, compliance and conformity.
This wasnât just an empowering line to capture the spirit of Stranger Things; it was a direct and intentional reference to the fight against AIDS.
And letâs be clear: Eddie Munson is heavily queer-coded.
He appears to have used the hanky code, showed a clear attraction to Steve, and was persecuted by his community during a mass hysteria that mirrored the real-life Satanic Panic.
So Mike Wheeler â a teen growing up in a Reagan-voting household, a member of the Hellfire Club, and one of Eddie Munsonâs chosen protĂŠgĂŠs â keeps a symbol of queer resistance and liberation hanging in his bedroom.
He also wears a custom-made shirt with a triangle over his heart.
Is that significant? Is it intentional?
Well, we have to go back to Escher's Relativity, which reminds us that itâs all relative:
The inverted triangle in the print hanging in Mikeâs room, and the triangle over his heart, only gain their full meaning when viewed in context: the bigger picture.
And in Stranger Things, a story about freaks and outcasts beating the odds, that bigger picture is the AIDS crisis: it's right there, providing the backdrop â the context.
Pride is a Riot
Queer liberation is not supposed to be polite or palatable: itâs about breaking down barriers, opening doors, making people uncomfortable, and demanding visibility.
One of the most prominent visual motifs included in season 4 of Stranger Things is the Creel mansion door.
A door â something which opens and reveals the truth inside (like a curtain, a gate, or a closet). Notice that doors, curtains, gates and closets all play a recurring role in Stranger Things; this show has an obsession with metaphors about opening barriers and revealling truths.
Now, the set designers haven't just suggested that Mike is in the closet, they've implied itâs a "one way" destination.
He canât leave. Itâs the impossible shape. A locked door.
But Robin already demonstrated how we can open a locked door and let the light (truth) in.
By smashing it with a brick â a possible reference to the Stonewall riots.
They didn't need to include this moment. The door didn't have to be locked, and Robin didnât have to be the one throwing the brick.
Heck, they could have thrown in a little fanservice and had Steve take off his jacket and punch through the glass with his fist.
Like the "one way" sign, the significance of the brick is relative â relative to its wielder:
Robin Buckley, a canon lesbian who is partially closeted and partially out.
Interestingly, when we look back at Mike Wheeler's room â and specifically his closet â we can see that the set designers placed a mirror inside.
Mirrors show our reflection; they expose truths and confront us with our reality and identity.
In this case, the mirror also catches rays of light streaming from Mikeâs window, just like the beams that poured in when Robinâs brick smashed through the Creel mansion door.
Light is truth, illumination and exposure.
The Matter of Perspective
We can wax poetic about Escher's Relativity all day, but its core principle is simple; it's about perspective.
Is Mike Wheeler queer-coded?
Well, it's relative. Whether you read Mike as straight or queer depends on your point of view, and your way of seeing the world:
Are you sympathetic to the struggles and experiences of queer people? Are you queer yourself and know that experience intimately? Do you see queerness not as an "inversion" of the norm, but as an equally valid expression?
If the answer to any of these is yes, then you probably interpret Mike as queer due to your perspective.
I donât at all begrudge those who simply arenât familiar with queer-coding â but I do detest those who refuse to see it, or see it and choose to deny it.
Because silence is death.
Mikeâs sexuality needs to be both recognized and canonized, because overt queer representation matters. It doesn't matter if it makes Themâ˘ď¸ uncomfortable â queer lives matter more than stupid respectability politics.
Stranger Things has already been catering to Themâ˘ď¸ by watering down the narrative: keeping Mike hidden behind the curtain, and in the closet.
I donât mind because I love a riddle, but weâre heading into the final season now. The endgame.
The curtain has to open. The door needs to be smashed.
But will they do it? That likely depends on the perspective of the Stranger Things creators themselves.
So, what is their perspective?
What is the ethos that drives the show's storytelling?
For the answer, we can turn to David Harbour's SAG Awards speech (edited for brevity):
"This award⌠is a call to arms from our fellow craftsmen and women to go deeper, and through our art to battle against fear, self-centeredness, and exclusivity⌠and through our craft to cultivate a more empathetic and understanding society by revealing intimate truthsâŚ
We 1983 Midwesterners will repel bullies, we will shelter freaks and outcasts... we will get past the lies⌠And when we are at a loss amidst the hypocrisy and the casual violence of certain individuals and institutions we will⌠punch some people in the face when they seek to destroy the weak, and the disenfranchised, and the marginalized."
And remember the context: a story set in a conservative Midwestern town in the 1980s, in the shadow of the AIDS crisis and the Satanic Panic, where one of the main characters is a canon gay teen in love with his best friend.
I'd say their perspective is pretty fucking clear. đş
Here is the vampire shadow design from the end of my latest Youtube video, an hour-long cultural analysis of the Shadow Vampire skin.
Art Credits:
Character design by me
Character art of Shadow by TheShadyInfidel on Twitter
Background by me
What's up with the Bride of Frankenstein stripe? Where does the top hat come from? Why purple?!?!?! This weird (and kind of ugly) Halloween skin is more interesting, layered, and influenced by queer culture than you might think. Here is the full video:
People who use the end of the flirting scene between Mike and Will in Episode 4 as âproofâ that this is somehow the âend of Bylerââdespite the extensive explanations already offered by countless viewersâcontinue to misunderstand a scene that is, both narratively and psychologically, entirely coherent. Willâs reaction at the end is not a response to anything Mike does after his subtle romantic gesture. The conversation had already ended. Yes, Will made a moveâan initiative in flirting he had never dared before, even if it was discreet and understated. Mike noticed it, appreciated it, and was perhaps momentarily overwhelmed, but he did not walk away because he was uncomfortable. He simply resumed walking because the exchange was over, fully expecting Will to follow.
It is Will who remains rooted in place, seized by anxiety and suddenly doubting himselfânot because of Mikeâs response, but because of the act of flirting itself. He tried to take a risk after his conversation with Robin in the hospital, but the shame and self-directed contempt that have been so deeply internalized in him resurfaced almost instantly. Robin, importantly, sees this. What she recognizes is not the ârejectionâ that some viewers project onto the scene, but the familiar spiral of a young gay boy allowing himself, for one fleeting moment, to be authentic, only to recoil in fear the second after. She sees herself in him because she knows that spiral intimately.
And I believe people who misinterpret all of thisâaside from the disingenuous homophobes and the Milevens who would sell their own mothers before letting Byler become canon out of pure spite and egoâare forgetting the historical context: the 1980s.
When a gay teenager today flirts with a friend, the primary anxiety is generally, âDoes he like me back?â
But for Willâand for queer youth in the 1980sâthat question is only the surface. Beneath it lies a far more frightening one:
âEven if he does like me back, what future could we possibly have? What will become of us?â
In 1980s America, homophobia was not just widespread; it was violent, institutionalized, and intensified by AIDS panic and puritanical conservatism. Even two boys with mutual feelings would be engulfed in fearânot only fear of rejection, but fear of consequences, fear of visibility, fear of the world itself. Willâs anxiety here is not simply âDoes Mike return my feelings?â That is the least of it. His true questions are:
âDo I even have the right to feel this way? What will happen to me if I allow myself to be this person? What danger am I inviting?â
I mentioned in a previous Byler post the testimony of the French comedian Pierre Palmade, a gay man coming of age in the 70s and young adult in 80s, who described an internalized homophobia so extreme that, despite his close friends knowing and accepting him, he was incapable of sustaining a loving relationship with a man. He ultimately became dependent on cocaine because it was the only way he could bear to have sexual relationships with menâonly when drugged out of his mind could he silence the shame and self-loathing his society had engraved into him since childhood. Otherwise, he repressed everythingârepressed himselfâbecause he had been taught that what he was constituted a flaw, an aberration.
This is the kind of fear we are talking about. The kind of shame that is shouted at you throughout your entire upbringing.
We must remember that the first reaction of most adults and classmates in Hawkins when Will went missing at just twelve years old was:
âHe was probably kidnapped and assaulted by some âqueer.â It was bound to happenâheâs one of them. He brought it on himself. Itâs not a great loss anyway.â
His own father used that slur on him. All of this directed at a child barely taller than the bicycles they rode.
This is why his conversation with Robin in the tunnel is pivotalâand why the scene in which he unleashes his powers, anchored in Robinâs words and in his childhood memories, is so profoundly significant. That moment is when he finally leaves shame behind. It is when he understands that he has never been a problem to be fixedâthat he should never erase or hide who he is. In those memories, he sees the little boy who was happy, open, and full of wonderâloved by his mother, loved by his brother, loved by his best friend (which he loves more than anyone). These three people shaped him through their love, and he carries that love within him. It is organic, reciprocal, and essential to who he is. It is the answer.
So yes, in that Episode 4 moment, Will falls back into a spiral of anxiety forged by hundreds of homophobic micro- and macro-traumas inflicted by his father and by societyâwounds meant to plant shame and self-hatred deep within him. But he ultimately breaks free of those chains during his recollection of childhood and through Robinâs affirmation. He does not follow the path of repression and shame that destroyed Pierre Palmade and harmed those around him. Will breaks the cycleâof shame, of fear, of internalized violenceâby choosing liberation instead.
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Ryuji Sakamoto is the GAYEST "straight" person I have ever seen
Ryuji is NOT straight. Like. Bro is one of the most blatantly oblivious queer characters in the universe and the Metaverse combined.
I'm about 95 hours into Persona 5 Royal and the amount of gay shit that has come out Ryuji's mouth unprompted is DIABOLICAL. So I've scrubbed through YouTube playthroughs and combed the internet to get screenshots of the most notable times that he has said insane gay shit that no one asked for.
THIS IS ALL CANON BTW đ
hee hee ;)
Starting with...
DOME TOWN
When you hang out with Ryuji in the game to level up his social link, you can choose the option to 'go somewhere fun', and one of the first times I did that, I was honestly just trying to see what kind of funny things he'd say based on where I took him, cuz he's my favorite character and he's so goofy and stupid and Max's voice acting is PEAK and tbh I just wanted more of my shitty favorite character Ryuji. He's such a fucking dumbass (affectionate)
Anyway, but Dome Town is apparently a place that is mostly populated by couples, so I took him there. Heehee.
Uh huh? Yeah? What do YOU think they're all thinking of you guys? Can't two guys just hang out as friends at an amusement park? Apparently not in RYUJI'S head.
This is one of the first instances in the game of Ryuji jumping to gay conclusions, although this one's a biiiit less out of pocket since they are surrounded by couples and it's a TAD more natural for his brain to go there. I guess. I suppose.
But just WAIT
Heehee
MOVING ON đ´ââ ď¸
THE HAWAII TRIP
Ah yes, the Hawaii trip. Perfect fuel for uh SHIPPING
Okay *ahem* anyway
The Hawaii trip that the Shujin kids take spans over multiple in-game days, and it's basically just kinda a reprieve from the fighting and Palaces and a nice rest from the emotionally taxing story, since the trip takes place after Futaba's Palace but before Okumura's arc begins. This segment of the game is FULL of dorky shenanigans and goofy interactions, you get to basically just see all the characters messing around having fun, shopping, chilling on the beach, gossiping, it's honestly SUCH a joy and I can't wait to play it again in my next playthrough.
But THIS is when it STARTS HEEHEEHEE
All right so in the beginning of the trip, when they FIRST get to Hawaii, they're milling about in the airport trying to figure out housing arrangements. Ryuji, without missing a BEAT, turns to Ren and is like "I WANNA ROOM WITH THIS GUY" with the biggest fucking smile on his face and then gets all pouty and sad when he's told he can't:
Bruh he's a sad little puppy dog when he's told he can't room with his crush *coughcough AHEM* best friend
AND THENNNN
Mishima asks if he can stay with Ren, to which you can give multiple different answers.
The one I picked when I played was the "why are you asking?" one. Because I don't mind Mishima and I took it as a "Why are you asking? Sure, you don't have to ask. Come along." That kind of thing. Also, Mishima is obsessed with the Phantom Thieves, so of course he'd want to hang out with their leader.
BUT BRUH RYUJIIIII
Ryuji deadass turns to Mishima and goes:
ARE YOU PLAYING
FOR THE OTHER TEAM???
Hello???????
You may as well have just said "yo man are you gay?"
And bro Mishima is just like
And that's what's hilarious to meâ NO ONE was thinking that. NO ONE was thinking anywhere NEAR there, NO ONE was even on the same BEACH as a gay connotation
But RYUJI is, apparently, his brain went immediately to dis boi is â¨homosexualâ¨
But THAT'S NOT ALL FOR THE HAWAII TRIP
Later on that night, when all the students are supposed to have settled down for the night, Mishima is talking to Ren about the Phantom Thieves or something probably, and someone knocks on the door. RYUJI comes in and is complaining about how his roommate brought his girlfriend over their room and he immediately hightailed it over to Ren's room.
Ryuji announces that he's gonna sleep in their room that night. He doesn't even ASK, he just STATES it.
ENTER FANFIC TROPE
HAHAHAHA
And what's so funny is that this is only a few scenes after Ryuji was INCREDIBLY determined room with Ren. His best friend. And Ryuji doesn't know Mishima well at all, so. If there were only two beds and he had to sleep with one of them...you KNOW he wouldn't want to sleep with Mishima.
...Ryuji would probably brush it off as a 'dude sleepover', then be gay panicking at 1am while watching Ren sleep and freaking himself out bc he doesn't know why Ren's baby sleeping face makes his heart pound. Then blame it on global warming or some shit
And the last thing about the Hawaii trip, Ann comes in later too because something similar happened to her, then they all spend the evening talking about what they want in a partner. Ann SINGLES RYUJI OUT and asks him what kind of person he likes, and she literally says TIME TO COME CLEAN
Come clean about WHAT?? Ryuji is VERY outwardly energetic about what kinds of girls he likes. He is pretty much constantly talking about wanting a girlfriend and thinking girls are hot and especially rambling on about their hot bodies and shit. Honestly, they're the most superficial answers ever. Boring as hell. But he's ALWAYS talking about wanting a hot girl, mostly for popularity points or something.
In fact, he does it SO MUCH that I think it's definitely an unconscious act or a front brought on by internalized compulsory heteronormativity. LikeâŚâŚ..who are you trying to convince, Ryuji?? Yourself??
He's the kind of guy to say 'I'm not gay!!!' then ogle at his dude best friend at the gym for like 10 minutes and blame his blush on working out really hard
THE SCHOOL FESTIVAL
In late October, Shujin Academy holds a really nice school festival with lots of fun character moments, a beautiful cutscene of Kasumi dancing, and some funny Ryuji/Mishima/Ren moments.
AND ALSO ONE OF THE MOST BLATANT GAY THINGS IN THE GAME
So at different points in the festival, they have kind of an open mic confession/secret thing, where different students can come up and say things to make the night more interesting and maybe add a little public embarrassment to the night. IDK it's a fun time.
Anyway.
Ryuji gets called on at random, and when he gets up the stage, he has really bad stage fright and is actively freaking out when Ren blurts out something random to divert the attention away from Ryuji and save his ass.
As a result, Ren is pulled up on the stage, and you are given three choices of what to share to the student body:
Of course you gotta give the juicy details, so I picked 'there's someone I like!' (so enthusiastic with that exclamation mark, like damn calm down romeo)
As a result, you're given a pretty extensive list of your Phantom Thief teammates and you can pick any of them. All of them are basically confessing that you're in LOVE with whoever you pick. Like. ROMANTICALLY. Because this is WITHIN THE CONTEXT of a CRUSH, not platonic love.
HAHAHA THIS IS CANON WHATTT
I was on FaceTime with my best friend at the time and I had him experiencing this moment with me too, with the camera flipped and everything. It was a canon event he had to witness with me, a necessary indoctrination. I gotta rope my bff into the gay shipping shenanigans because my ADHD wouldn't allow me to NOT share this moment with him.
Anyway, when you click that option, Ryuji pulls out his phone and texts Ren, asking him what he's gonna say. And when you tell him...
I DON'T NEED THAT LABEL ON ME???
You mean GAYYY???
Bruh it's so blatant it's hilarious
And then after the school festival, Ryuji and Ren are talking and Ryuji gets REALLY close to Ren, thanks him for saving him back there, and gives him a hot dog that's listed as an item as 'Ryuji Dog.'
Uh huh. Ryuji dog. Sure.
Ryuji's always givin him shit I swear
OH OH AND what's really fucking funny and telling is that in this scene, whether or not you have your confidant rank maxed out with Ryuji (I had his confidant maxed out at this point), when you tell him through text what you're gonna say, what audio do you hear? THE SOUND EFFECT OF THE CONFIDANT LEVEL UP.
...So Ryuji liked that shit.
I know what you are.
............gay boy.
NEXT
DANCING IN STARLIGHT DIALOGUE
In the dancing spin-off game called Dancing In Starlight (that IS canon), there are dialogue cutscenes. I don't know much about the game, I kind of just stumbled upon this YouTube video and it was the funniest shit I'd ever seen so I immediately screenshotted some of it for this post.
Yusuke and Ryuji are basically talking about what kind of girl they like. This is the fuckin exchange. Enter once again Ryuji making everything gay in his head
PFFFF BRO, YOU KNOW YUSUKE, YUSUKE SAYS OUT OF POCKET SHIT LIKE THAT
NO ONE IS THINKING THESE THINGS BUT YOU RYUJI
When Yusuke was asked what his preferred type of woman was, he didn't say 'no woman' or anything like that, he just said 'I have none.' Meaning he doesn't have a preferred type, not that he doesn't like women.
But RYUJI is the one that's like oh you don't have a preferred type of woman? BROTHER MUST BE â¨HOMSEXUALâ¨
HMMM ok Ryuji suuuuuurree
MOVING ON
Also in Dancing In Starlight, there's another video I found recently where Ryuji and the other boys are talking about romance experience, girlfriends, whatever. So, similar topic. When it pans over to Ryuji, he gives his normal superficial answer when it comes to girls, then he's pressured to give a more detailed answer that's less boring/stupid, and Ryuji deadass comes up with:
UH- EXCUSE ME
YOU MEAN THIS GUY?????
"Shy?" Especially early on in the game, Ryuji repeatedly comments on how quiet and soft-spoken Ren is.
"Bookie?" Ren can study at Sojiro's, at school, frequently, and I'm pretty sure Makoto or Ann or maybe BOTH can comment on the fact that Ren studies hard.
"With glasses?"
...Bro just described Ren.
And finally...
Probably the most direct thing in my opinion:
MORGANA'S GENDER CONVERSATION
Heehee. What could this beeeeee HAHA
*ahem*
Earlier on in the game, after Kamoshida's Palace but before Madarame's arc, Morgana introduces the gang to Mementos. He also reveals he can turn into a bus, and then later on in the day, they're all in Shibuya Square, discussing their missions and whatnot.
Ann asks Morgana if he's a boy or girl. Which, first of all, I find really funny, because up until that point, I thought that Morgana was a girl. He is voiced by a girl, and I'd been confused about Morgana's gender through the game thus far. I thought it was funny that the game was essentially clarifying Morgana's gender since I'm guessing they thought it would be confusing for some people.
Then, Ren is able to give one of three answers. Heehee. The three genders.
BOY
GIRL
CAR
But anyway, when I played this part, I answered what I'd honestly thought, which was girl. So, I picked 'gotta go girl.'
TO WHICH RYUJI RANDOMLY RESPONDS:
UM. UMMM. HELLO???
Okay okay okay hold up there ryuji 'you make me feel free' sakamoto
So........ok Ryuji lemmie break this down for your repressed gay ass, if Morgana is indeed a girl, then you don't wanna be anything more than friends? Because you aren't interested in being more than friends with girls? Because you'd rather be more than friends AHEM boyfriends withhhhh another gender? BECAUSE YOU'RE A â¨HOMOSEXUAL⨠BABYYYY
Combine AAAALLLLL of this with the fact that he is consistently VERY openly affectionate towards Ren, both physically and emotionally (he is the only one shown to physically embrace Ren when they all reunite after the Nov 20th plan). He regularly is shown being very vulnerable with him, in a way he never is with any other characters, he stands up for Ren in so many situations (he tells Makoto that Ren is a stand up guy right in front of him, Ryuji basically orders Shido to apologize to Ren after they defeat him), and he is the EASIEST social link to max out. Ryuji likes Ren SO MUCH that there are absolutely ZERO obstacles to maxing out his confidant rank. He is smitten from the day they meet.
Not to mention bro literally has a shirt in the game that he wears FREQUENTLY that says "NO MO' RULES"
Which, okay sure, it's supposed to say 'no more rules', but uh. That's a *cough* a very sus way to write it. And from certain angles it looks like it says somethin' else...........
It's so fucking funny. The closet is glass. It's SO glass.
Honestly I relate to Ryuji a lot in this way lol. I went to college for the second time a little over two years ago and my friend group quickly formed. They were ALL queer people, and I was the 'boring straight person' that they were letting hang out with them. I was honored that they were letting me hang out with them because I was the uninteresting straight person. Little did I know that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM thought and theorized that I was queer, some of them from the day they met me, and they all unanimously didn't say anything because '[he] has to figure it out on [his] own.' I was also like Ryuji in the sense that I said TONS of sus and out of pocket gay stuff, AND I pursued guys romantically as a straight girl and performed heterosexuality for most of my life even though it felt so wrong. Now, years later, I am a bisexual trans man with a preference towards dating men. Gay/queer as FUCK. Gay denial and comphet is a BEAST. From experience, it can put off a queer realization for YEARS.
Bridgerton can be heavy-handed with its writing. However, where they were masterful is Benedict coming out to Sophie.
He shares a bit of his identity, and itâs framed as identity: part of him.
Then she shares a bit of her identity: being illegitimate.
I think in the context of the show Sophieâs struggle being illegitimate is similar to a queer struggle. She longs for a family. Thatâs so gay! (joking aside, she does long for a family that accepts her as her own person).
We also have the complication of Benedict wanting a family, wanting children; and realizing his kids might be viewed differently if heâs with Sophie. Itâs not a one to one parallel, but it feels queer to me. Struggling to have a family, then to know the kids might face prejudice because of their parents.
Thematically, Benedictâs coming out and Sophieâs reveal of illegitimacy happening in the same conversation was excellent.
Also theyâre hid away in a gazebo, because they canât really be seen together. Gay. (sad but gay)
Or: an analysis of EtM fandom biases and internalised misogyny
What a title. I want to start this off by saying that this essay isnât meant to attack shippers, or artists, or writers. This is a general analysis of Epic: the Musical fandom (henceforth referred to as âfandomâ unless otherwise specified) biases through the lens of my current hyperfixation: Odysseus.
Letâs begin with a simple fact. Artists and writers within the wider Greek Mythos fandom, which encompasses all sorts of mediaâHomerâs works and their derivatives, such as Epic: the Musical, the Hades games by Supergiant, even Ulysses dies at Dawn by the Mechanismsâhave a myriad of interpretations of Odysseus. It often comes down to which media you prefer, just as within the more academic world of Greek mythos you have those who pick and choose which theologian (Hesiod, Apollodorus, etc.), or epic (the Thebaid, the Aeneid, the Odyssey, etc.) or play (Sophocles, Euripides, etc.) they prefer the characters and characterisation of.
So what caused the mass conception of Odysseus as the submissive bottom in the gay relationships the EtM fandom ascribes to him? Why is he, here on Tumblr, often shown as a twink?
To answer those questions, we have to first define a couple terms.
Defining Terms
Submissive (sub): in Bondage, Dominance, Sadism & Masochism (BSDM) communities, this refers to a partner that assumes a submissive role. However, it should be noted that this does not include a lack of agency or power.
To define the word submissive itself, Iâve turned to the Cambridge dictionary:
A sub, in the context of shipping, is often used as interchangeable with another word: bottom. But these are two entirely separate terms, so letâs define that one, too.
Bottom (bot): as in a sexual relationship, the partner which is being penetrated.
And you might be asking, âSmitty, why does it matter the definitions?â Iâll point you towards this lovely article put out by the SF Aids Foundation, which has a very pertinent quote:
âBut hereâs the thing: dominance and submission exist independently from physical positions. They operate on separate axes. Being dominant doesnât automatically make someone a top, just as being submissive doesnât make someone a bottom. These dynamics can manifest in countless ways, from gentle guidance to explicit direction, from warm encouragement to playful teasing.â
For tagging purposes here on tumblr, you might see the mashing of these two terms together into a new term, âsubbotâ, which refers to both the submissive and bottom roles a sexual partner assumes.Â
I would like to re-emphasise that neither of these terms includes the lack of agency seen in non consensual or dubiously consensual relationships.
And, finally, if youâve gotten this far? You probably know what a twink is, but for the sake of completeness and to make sure weâre all on the same page, letâs define it:
Twink: a term used to describe a gay man that is often effeminate or otherwise defiant of traditional masculine gender norms; physically described as thin and slight, with little to no body hair.
Iâve taken this definition from the sources listed in the LGBTQIA+ wiki, which does expand on further. For the sake of brevity (Smitty says, writing hundreds of words about fandom tropes) Iâll just let you read the wiki yourself.
Ok, weâve got our definitions. Even made flash cards. Weâre studied up, weâre ready. Finally, Iâll lay the thesis on you.
The Thesis
The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative.
Wow. Much word. Letâs break it down.
The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative.
Patriarchal values: we live in a patriarchy. A male-dominated society, which prioritises men over women in terms of social status. This leads to stereotypes such as âwomen are weak-willedâ and âmen must be strong.â By âvaluesâ, Iâm referring to feminine and masculine roles which align with this patriarchy.
The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative.
Onto relationships: the fandom is applying the patriarchal society it exists in to the relationships itâs shipping. In other words, those feminine and masculine roles, which are the two halves of a heterosexual relationship, are being projected onto relationships that the fandom ships.
The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative.
By ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects: Ignoring characterisation of both the source itself (Epic: the Musical) as well as what itâs derived from (Homerâs The Odyssey) to the ends of enforcing heterosexual roles. This includes what Odysseus looks like, i.e. physical appearance/characteristics, as well as personality, i.e. mental characteristics.
The EtM fandom reflects patriarchal values onto relationships by ignoring physical and mental characteristics of subjects in order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative.
In order to conform to a heterosexual societal narrative: Women, who occupy the feminine gender role in a patriarchy, are supposedly less physically imposing, emotional, weak, pathetic; the ones being penetrated when sex is involved. Men, who occupy the masculine gender role within a patriarchy, are supppsedly physically imposing, stoic, strong, in control; the ones doing the penetrating, when sex is involved. In other words, this is saying even gay ships within the fandom exhibit the same gender roles as a heterosexual relationship as enforced by the patriarchy.
Trends and Tropes
The prevailing trend in the EtM fandom is towards interpretations where Odysseus is shown to be slight, with little or no facial hair. In writing, heâs the bottom, and beyond that heâs submissiveâbut not as he would be in a healthy, well-negotiated BSDM relationship. These two terms (âbottomâ and âsubâ) are constantly conflated when it comes to Odysseus. To that end, he also has derogatory terms which essentially mean the same thing ascribed to him: malewife, manwhore, etc.
These tropes exist. Theyâre popular, spawning literally hundreds of fanfics for one sexual positionâŚ
âŚAnd maybe tens of them for another.
Thatâs 2.3x the amount of tagged bottom Odysseus fanfics on AO3 versus tagged top Odysseus fanfics on AO3. I emphasise the tagged because, beyond the fanfics tagged in this manner, there are innumerable amounts untagged but which fit into these tropes where Odysseus is submissive and/or a bottom. Oftentimes itâs both, with a side of non-consent. The distinction is very murky, and that is the reason I defined the two at the beginning of this essay.
Why is this idea so prevalent? Why are these two termsâbottom and subâconflated so heavily for Odysseus in particular within the EtM fandom?
Source vs Derivative
In the original Odyssey, Odysseus is a sexual assault victim. Iâm not going deeper into that statement because there are many people who have done many essays on that exact subject, and I urge you to find and read them (I recommend this one by dootznbootz about specifically Circe's assault). Odysseus is also a character who doesnât shy from showing his emotions. To that end, Iâve chosen some snippets from Klineâs translation of the Odyssey simply for the accessibility of the text to my readers:
Of his time on Calypsoâs isle (BkV:43-91 Hermes visits Calypso)
âOf Odysseus there was no sign, since he sat wretched as ever on the shore, troubling his heart with tears and sighs of grief. There he could gaze out over the rolling waves, with streaming eyes.â
And when he is retelling his whole story to the Phaeacians (BkVII:240-297 Odysseus tells of his arrival)
â...the tenth night of darkness the gods washed me shore on Ogygia, where lives that dread goddess Calypso of the lovely tresses. She welcomes me to her home with kindness, fed me, and promised to make me ageless and immortal, but she never reached my heart. Seven whole years I stayed there, soaking the everlasting garments Calypso gave me with my tears. But when the eighth year came round, she urged me to go, because of some message from Zeus, or because her feelings had changed.â
And finally when Odysseus hears a bard sing of the fall of Troy (BkVIII:521-585 Alcinous questions Odysseus)
âAnd Odysseusâ heart melted, and tears poured from his eyes. He wept pitifully, as a woman weeps who throws herself on her husbandâs dying body, fallen in front of his city and people, trying to ward off that evil moment from the city and his own children: watching him gasping for breath in dying, she clings to him and screams aloud, while behind her the enemy beat her back and shoulders with their spears: then she is led into captivity to endure a life of toil and suffering, her cheeks wasted pitifully with grief. He hid the falling tears from all except Alcinous, who, aware because he sat by him, noticed all, and heard him sighing deeply. At one he addressed the sea-faring Phaeacians:
âLeaders and Counsellors of the Phaeacians, hear me, and let Demodocus still his ringing lyre, since his song fails to give pleasure to all alike. From the moment of our feast when our divine bard was inspired to sing, this stranger has never stopped his sad grieving, his heart must surely be overflowing with sorrow. Let the bard refrain, and let us enjoy ourselves, hosts and guest alike: that would be better. We prepared all this for the sake of a sacred stranger after all, this farewell and the gifts of friendship we give with love. To a man of any intelligence, a stranger, a suppliant, is dear as a brother.'â
He cries. Openly. Multiple times. And you might be asking, âSmitty, weâre talking about Epic: the Musical, not the Odyssey. Why are you bringing it up?â
Within Epic: the Musical, certain scenes are given more leeway for interpretationâbut the coercion of EtM Circe, for example, is still present and very real. The lyric which EtM Circe sings, âWant to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you're willing to burnâ shows this the best. She is demanding sex in return for freeing his men from her spell.
EtM Calypso, whom I will compare directly to the Odyssey snippets provided, still keeps Odysseus trapped for seven years upon her isleâeven if you choose to ignore the following lyrics:
[CALYPSO]
Anyways, I've got all you could want here
All you could need here
Just you and me, my dear, my love for life
Soon, into bed we'll climb and spend our time
[ODYSSEUS]
I'm not your man
[CALYPSO]
I'm what you want here, I'm what you need here
Just you and me, my love in paradise
Now 'til the end of time
From here on out, you're mine, all mine
[ODYSSEUS]
Hell no, I could kill you where you stand
I'm no pet, I'm a married man
[CALYPSO]
Oh handsome, you may try
But last I checked, goddesses can't die
Iâve taken the liberty of bolding the lyrics which are particularly relevant to this point. EtM Calypso insists that Odysseus join her in bedâassumes it as a givenâand when Odysseus refuses? She insists again. Calls him hers, as one might an object. When Odysseus resorts to threats to protect his person, Calypso replies that she cannot die⌠and then laughs.
Now, I ask for you to go through a thought exercise with me.
If thisâ
âSoon weâll get into bed together, pretty, just you wait.â
âNo. I already have a partner.â
âYouâre still mine.â
âStop itâI have a knife! Back up!â
âA knife wonât change how this ends. Haha!â
âWas a conversation between a man and a woman⌠who would you call the âmasculineâ person and who would you call the âfeminineâ person? The orange is the masculine, right? Heâs threatening the feminine person (green) into sex. Thatâs what comes about in a patriarchy.
The same thing is happening to Odysseus in the Odyssey happens to Odysseus in Epic: the Musical. With Calypso, with Circe, there is sexual coercion. And what does he do? Beg it to not happen and cry, as any victim of assault might in the immediate threat and in the aftermath, no matter their gender. He did so in the Odyssey, and he did so in the musical which is based off of it. No difference, there.
This is all to say: for all intents and purposes, EtM Odysseus and his Odyssey counterpart experience similar scenarios. However, why is Epic: the Musical such a breeding ground for unhealthily submissive, bottom Odysseus?
Putting it All Together
These shows of emotion are one of the contributors to fandom ascribing him a submissive role. In the end, modern society demands of its men a lack of such a thing: call it what you will, âtoxic masculinityâ or another phrase, but men who show such emotions are often called slurs (gay and its far ruder explicative), a âlittle girlâ, which is in and of itself misogynistic, or otherwise degraded. Theyâre associated with someone who is penetrated (âgayâ), and with femininity (âlittle girlâ). The bucking of masculine gendered norms? Well that means a man is equated with the supposed weakness associated with femininity.
This fandom has been a reflection of the patriarchal society we live in, because it does the exact same thing: associates being emotional, being the one who is assaulted, the one who is penetrated with being feminineâand in turn weakness of character. I mentioned earlier the use of terms such as âmalewifeâ and âmanwhoreâ to describe Odysseus. But letâs think critically about those for a minute:
âMalewifeâ = âMaleâ + âWifeâ
â Attributes the feminine gendered term âwifeâ to someone submissive within a relationship. Does that mean women, wives, are inherently submissive? So much so that when a masculine person inhabits that role, we must put âmaleâ in front of the word to denote what genitals or traditional gendered role they have?
âManwhoreâ = âManâ + âWhoreâ
â Implies that whore is a gendered term. More than that, a feminine one, as it must be specified that a man is the whore. This is a term used especially in the EtM fandom to describe the âjoke AUâ originally created by AnniFlamma. In it, Odysseus seduces his way out of the obstacles of the Odysseyâspecifically the wrath of Zeus for the murder of Heliosâ sacred cowsâby offering up his body, which is a form of sexual coercion.
Sound familiar? Letâs go back to that line by Circe: âWant to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you're willing to burnâ. The exact same situation unfolds here, with the exact same coercion, the exact same power imbalance.
The usage of these terms to describe Odysseus inherently equates him to femininity, and more than that ignores things such as sexual coercion (gods have inherent power over mortals, and in all instances Odysseus is subject to that power when sexually interacting with gods & goddesses). However, by equating him to femininity, fandom is not bucking gendered roles. It does not explore how a masculine man can be feminine. Instead, it forces him to take up a new gendered role:
That of a woman in a patriarchy.
Physicality Reflecting Gendered Roles
Instead of following Homerâs original description of Odysseus (BkVIII:104-151 The Sports Contest)
âHeâs a fine build in thighs and calves, with two strong arms, a stout neck, plenty of strength. Nor has he lost the power of youth, he is only wearied with suffering.â
Fandom instead makes him slight, thinly built. Shorter than all other characters he is paired with, from Penelope to Diomedes. It portrays him as a twink, in direct ignorance of the base text from which this character sprung (or, well, was first written down in. Thereâs oral histories that are older). Even the EtM specific interpretations, which are commonly based on Jorge Rivera-Herrans, have begun to morph to fit this physique so they might better conform to gendered roles. The âweakâ one. The âstrongâ one. Penelope of Sparta who pegs her pathetic husband. Odysseus, her malewife who loves to be fucked.
A âtwinkâ, as we defined earlier, is a man who is perhaps physically more effeminate. Who embraces their more androgynous looksâbucking gendered norms.
But what the EtM fandom does is take the sexual assault, open shows of emotion, and general use of his wits instead of strength⌠and instead puts him in the role of a woman. It forces him into a little gendered box. Not only that, it ascribes a weakness to the very femininity it could have engaged with. In every relationship Odysseus is put in, heâs always the one being penetrated. Heâs the submissive one. He is physically weaker. His femininity is explored by this fandom solely through the eyes of the modern patriarchy, which sees men who have been assaulted and who show emotions as lesser, as women, as weak. Can masculine men not be sexually assaulted? Can men who top not cry? Can men who dominate not be the bottom?
Can women not be feminine and strong? Can Odysseus not be feminine and strong?
For the Epic: the Musical fandom, the answer to those questions is no. Odysseus being a submissive bottom is so prevalent in this fandom that itâs going untagged in AO3 ships, and more than that, dubious consent is going untagged in the fics which have one of the gods or goddesses in a relationship with Odysseus.
This fandom is so obsessed with putting a man in a feminine role that itâs become a reflection of the modern patriarchal society we live in, complete with misogynyâbecause the counterpart to Odysseus is always a character in a masculine role, from Penelope (see âWarrior Penelopeâ AUs) to Zeus (who is a literal god and has complete control over every relationship he is in). It doesnât matter that Penelopeâs whole characterisation relies upon her use of her feminine role as hostess and beautiful Queen to control 108 suitors for years; when she is the counterpart to Odysseus, she is almost always the one who has the emotional onus of comforting Odysseus of his troubles. Where Odysseus is emotional, Penelope is stoic. Where Odysseus suffers, Penelope is in control. Feminine and masculine.
The perfect heterosexual relationship.
Itâs just a thin, thin veneer of queerness that this fandom is hiding behind.
Call to Action
What I want to do in this essay is strip away that veneer. This fandom needs to think critically for a moment about why Odysseus is the powerless submissive bottom to all of its relationships, and understand that underlying the excuse of âheâs just so good at itâ is the expectation that assaulted people who show their sorrow are feminine. Feminine means Odysseus is less physically imposing, emotional, weak, pathetic; the one to be penetrated when sex is involved. Heâs a subby little twink. A pathetic, sad wet cat. How many times have you heard some combination of those phrases when describing Odysseus?
Assigning Odysseus this role means that misogyny is perpetrated under the guise of queerness. Odysseus occupies a feminine gender roleâand due to that occupation, he is then characterised as weak, physically and mentally. Have you ever thought about what that might mean to anyone under the trans umbrellaâespecially trans women? How his body must reflect femininity, and how that femininity must mean he is thin, pale, short. How his femininity means he must be the one being penetrated, the one being taken care of, infantilizedâŚ
And, in the case of Odysseus in particular, thatâs just fucking sad. Heâs called polytropos for a reason. Many tropes. If youâve made it this far, then Iâm glad to see you. Interrogate your own biases once in a while. Think critically about a character and their place in society. Odysseus, in his own ancient epic, is compared to a wife who weeps for her fallen husband in the face of her conquered cityâbut in the same book heâs described as a physically imposing man. He returns home and reclaims his position as king and husband⌠but he is most well-known to his friends as father of dear Telemachus.
Duality in gendered role, but more than that a spectrum, is possible. Itâs needed. In the thousands-of-years-old epic Odysseus is already in the murky in-between of the gender binary enforced by the patriarchy. Why is the EtM fandom enforcing that binary once again onto its queer ships? Is that really Odysseus? Is that really exploring the fluidity of gender, as Homer does in his original epic?
Are you truly engaging with queerness?
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If you liked this essay, then please tell me in the comments or reblogs! If you disliked this essay, do the sameâbut be prepared for me to ask questions. This isnât a smear campaign, itâs an opening for discussion. A call to think a little deeper about fandom, its tropes, and how we might interrogate our personal biases⌠be they misogynistic or otherwise. Iâll be putting out more essays like this one every week or so, so stay tuned!
