#monkey thinking image

the gist of my question was:

so, when i read people's meta about ivan, i tend to see the two ideas/sentiments commonly expressed:

1. ivan believes that it is impossible for him to be loved (whether by till specifically or in general).

2. ivan believes that he is unworthy of being loved (whether by till specifically or in general).

and from what i've seen, in the meta about him, these two ideas are often used interchangeably.

but to me these aren't the same idea at all? these are two different ideas, often with very different manifestations and implications? and one can't just freely swap out one for another without changing the meaning of the rest of their analysis?

so i was curious to hear what you think because you seem like a Real Ivan Understander TM

thank uuuuu

forgive me because i haven't really had the time to really think this idea through. the best answer i can give you is that uh... i think it depends.. and it's complicated......

"impossible to be loved" is more of a logical statement and "unworthy of love" is more emotional. i think ivan thinks both. nowhere explores his defeatist mindset - he applies the first statement here to reason himself out of his hurt. by applying a definitive statement that he is completely powerless in having others love him, he regains a sense of control over the world. paratise explores his enduring desperation for anything till will give him, even after being rejected and trying to rationalise it. logic always goes out of the window for him whenever till is involved. here is where his self image twists under the magnitude of his self hatred into something subhuman, and where the second statement can apply.