#icd 11

Like, sorry for using the term that is most accurate to us??

?? Do they think that like.. disorders that are in the ICD-11 but not the DSM-V just.. don't exist in America or something?

Here is a direct quote from the dsm 5:

"F. If there is a history of autism spectrum disorder or a communication disorder of childhood onset, the additional diagnosis of schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations, in addition to the other required symptoms of schizophrenia, are also present for at least 1 month (or less if successfully treated)"

(I know not every country uses the DSM - 5. I've looked into the ICD 11 and it has not mentions about Autism in the Schizophrenia category aka its not saying you can't have both)

I've seen some people on here say they've been told they can't be diagnosed with both and this is completely wrong. Schizophrenia and Autism are often linked together.

" According to literature, up to 34.8% of the patients with a diagnosis of ASD can show psychotic symptoms and, similarly, autistic traits have been reported in schizophrenia patients (SCZ) in a percentage ranging between 3.6 and 60% "

"  a large overlap between schizophrenia and ASD, and point to the need to expand the understanding of the potential mediating mechanisms of this co-occurrence "

" Researchers have long suspected that autism and schizophrenia are related. The two conditions have overlapping traits, including sensory-processing problems and social difficulties, and they share gene-expression patterns in brain tissue. But studies of the prevalence of each condition among people diagnosed with the other have yielded inconsistent results.

Collating data from 11 studies, the new analysis found that schizophrenia is 3.6 times as common in individuals with autism as in controls. Autism likewise occurs more often in people with schizophrenia than in the general population"

Those are articles I found in a quick search.

Anyway, here is a great page talking about the use of e.g.

Pay close attention to that last line. "e.g." inherently implies other examples are being omitted.

So when the ICD-11 says this...

It is not limiting the phenomenon to mediumship and spiritual practices. In fact, the use of "e.g." in this context implies that there are circumstances where this is true outside of culturally accepted spiritual practices.

In contrast, "i.e." is what one uses to mean something specific.

If the World Health Organization intended culturally accepted spiritual practices to be the only exception, they could have easily used i.e. instead.

ICD-10: Unspecified event, undetermined intent (Y34), Sucked into jet engine subsequent encounter (V97.33XD), Asphyxiation due to being trapped in a (discarded) refrigerator (T71.231), Feared condition not demonstrated (Z71.1)

From the Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual (2006):

From the DSM-IV-TR (2000) and the ICD-10 (2019):

Guntrip's core traits (1969):

In the SWAP-200 personality assessment:

From the DSM-5-TR (2022):

The ICD-11 (2022) doesn't have a specific schizoid diagnosis, but it's detachment trait domain in its personality disorder traits section is similar to SzPD:

I saw something about this recently and I can’t find it now, so I’m going to write my own post

So a lot of people like to talk about this part of the ICD 11 as discussing endogenic plurality:

They say it uses the same wording-- “distinct personality states” for mediums and spiritual practitioners (that’s an important word, take note), as it does for DID.

But it doesn’t, really. It specifically calls DID states “distinct personality states (dissociated identities)” and other things “distinct personality states”. It’s a small difference that has a huge implication, because it’s not actually talking about what the person is experiencing, but what they are displaying.

Also, it continues on by referring specifically to DID as “dissociated identities” rather than distinct personality states, drawing a clear distinction between the two despite the initial wording and the claims surrounding it.

The point, though, is that it uses the example of mediums and spiritual practitioners because they’re making the distinction between internal and external “possessing” agents.

Specifically, they are referencing people that say they are, or appear to be, experiencing distinct external personality states.

Not endogenic plurals.

And we can see that, because further down, the ICD 11 also states:

Apparently everything is fine and dandy, right up until there’s internal agents involved.

And there’s plenty of research into mediums and DPTD. Probably just as much as there is for channeling and DID, and the ICD 11 is just as clear that cases of (external) possession that are not experienced adversely and occur within culturally accepted contexts should not be diagnosed with either disorder. Like mediums and spiritual practitioners living their best lives with their gifts and skills.

Anyways, there’s a reason they chose those two specific examples, and it doesn’t have anything to do with endogenic plurals.

Can we please stop trying to prove endogenic plurality using resources that clearly aren’t meant for that experience? Proving something is real doesn’t mean twisting facts about something that’s already controversial and misunderstood.

The ICD 11 or the DSM 5 not talking about endognic plurality is actually perfectly okay, you don’t need to twist it to try to support your point. It’s just not talking about that, positively or negatively. Plain and simple.

OSDD and UDD and no longer categories. Everything is renamed or put in with something else now. OSDD-1 (yes, both) are now a part of DID and pDID.

Partial DID is defined as:

Now, we don’t exactly fit the diagnostic criteria for pDID, and we acknowledge that.

Now, if we look at the new criteria for DID:

“What about the no amnesia part of OSDD-1b?” It’s right here! On the page for DID!

By the criteria here, we are a DID system. Trust me, as an autistic system, we are not coping well with change but that’s fine. I believe it’s still the same in the DSM-5, though I may be wrong as our country doesn’t use that. We use the ICD.

This was done in February this year, so we really learned about this quite late. I’ve just seen no one talking about this and we probably should be.

Source: https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f1829103493

-🌸 (also feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)

Well, part of that is because the diagnostic criteria's phrasing is pretty ableist. I can give you a quote from the most recent DSM (DSM-V TR, 2022) which is the book that professionals in the USA diagnose out of. I cannot give you the current criteria for ASPD outside of the US, because the ICD-11 has gotten rid of individual personality disorders in favor of a general "Personality Disorder" diagnosis with 3 severities but no clusters or individual disorders. I can give you the previous criteria from ICD-10, however.

(From DSM-V TR, 2022 - "Antisocial Personality Disorder, Diagnostic Criteria")

"A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: 1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest 2. Deceitulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure. 3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead 4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults. 5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others 6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations. 7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another B. The individual is at least age 18 years. C. There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years. D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder."

The important thing to remember is that the DSM specifically states it is not meant to be used like a cookbook, where a list of ingredients makes a final outcome. That is to say, having ASPD isn't as simple as having 3/7 of the numbered criteria and fitting the lettered criteria. There is nuance to understanding what ASPD looks like and feels like, the diagnostic and associated features sections, development criteria that must also make sense (aka what, as far as we currently know, are either genetics and/or environments that cause ASPD) within your life experience, as well as differential diagnosis to make sure the symptoms don't fit better elsewhere.

The associated features section of the DSM-V TR section on ASPD is fairly long, so I am unable to put all of that here.

The differential diagnosis section of the DSM specifically mentions a few types of disorders to look out for that may appear to be ASPD based on symptoms alone, which I can list here.

Substance Use Disorder: If someone would also qualify for a substance use disorder diagnosis, then ASPD is only diagnosed if ASPD symptoms were present from young childhood and to present day. Both can be diagnosed, even if both were present in childhood and adulthood, but it is not ASPD if no ASPD traits were shown in childhood prior to the use of substances.

Schizophrenia and Bipolar disorders: If ASPD symptoms are only present during episodes associated with Bipolar disorder (manic episodes) or Schizophrenia (psychosis), then that isn't considered ASPD.

Other Personality Disorders: ASPD *can* co-occur with other personality disorders, but you want to research all of them to be certain that it a different PD doesn't fit better than, rather than in addition to, ASPD.

(From ICD-10 Dissocial Personality Disorder)

"Personality disorder characterized by disregard for social obligations, and callous unconcern for the feelings of others. There is gross disparity between behaviour and the prevailing social norms. Behaviour is not readily modifiable by adverse experience, including punishment. There is a low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence; there is a tendency to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behaviour bringing the patient into conflict with society."

(It is worth noting the word "gross" used in the phrase gross disparity is referring to a secondary definition of gross, meaning large/important/marked/prominent. They are not being bluntly ableist on main in the ICD).

In the ICD, they note exclusions, which I believe is similar to the differential diagnosis section in the DSM, for Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (BPD) and Conduct Disorders.

Overall, this criteria has its own serious issues for both versions, but it is the diagnosing criteria (current for the DSM and recent but not current for the ICD, as mentioned above) for Antisocial/Dissocial Personality Disorder and therefore needs to be a part of any research into self diagnosis.

I would highly recommend looking into the DSM entry itself for ASPD as it is lengthy but thorough (and yes, somewhat stigmatizing) in its explanation of how ASPD tends to present itself. Putting the term PDF after DSM-V TR definitely does (cough) not (cough) produce some results that would aid you in this, and idk why anyone would do that when there is a perfectly legal way to buy the DSM for over $100 for a PDF version.