#ffvii:ltd

A. Because of his guilt, Cloud had been unable to sense Aerith’s presence?

Yes, Cloud had been unable to sense Aerith’s presence because of his guilt. Remember what happened to Dyne in Maiden of the Planet?

     She didn’t use coercion but instead, she approached Dyne gently. Extending out her hands, she touched the layer of blood that covered him.      Aerith “The blood bound to you is something that your feeling of guilt is making. The lives you took away returned to the Lifestream long ago. You can’t forget about what you’ve done but, there is no reason why you can’t start over. I guarantee it.”     Dyne “….”

     From the point where Aerith touched, the blood dried up into tissue, detached from Dyne and wore away. Then, Dyne’s left arm started to fade away.…….     For the first time, Dyne smiled from the bottom of his heart and quietly, his image faded away. The tip of the gun on his left arm disappeared.      Dyne “After dying and experiencing all that, I can finally stop turning my back against Barret and Marlene. Let me say my thanks…”      Just before he sunk into the Lifestream, Aerith saw it.      She saw Mako particles make their way towards Dyne and huddle together on him as if they had a will of their own. Dyne’s faint, surprised voice could be heard.      Dyne “Eleanor?”

Until Aerith had healed Dyne’s guilt by touching his arm, Dyne was unable to sense the presence of his wife Eleanor. In the same way, Cloud had been unable to sense Aerith’s presence until Aerith started healing Cloud’s guilt.

B. Cloud doesn’t sense Aerith when she speaks to him earlier in the movie?

When? Do you mean when he was getting close to the Forgotten City and spoke with Aerith in the back to back flower field scene?

If so, Aerith had already started healing him at that point. In the Reunion Files, Nojima said that Aerith started healing both Cloud and Tifa when they were lying unconscious in her Church:

There’s some foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith is going to appear,” says Nojima. “There’s a point in the plot where Cloud and Tifa are lying unconscious on the flowers here and their wounds are healed. Also, Aerith has a sort of ‘watery’ image about her, so we used water to convey her presence. ~Nojima, Reunion Files

If Aerith heals their wounds, then it’s only logical that she would also start to heal Cloud’s guilt. Also, at that time, Cloud is nearing the Forgotten City, which is a citadel of the power of the Ancients. It’s where Aerith went to summon Holy, so her Cetra powers would be enhanced near the Forgotten City.

C. So why is it a physical place? If it’s about Aerith than the location shouldn’t matter. His PL should be wherever she is. And she can “be with him anywhere”

You seem to be confusing Cloud’s PL with where he can be with Aerith. Yes, Cloud can be with Aerith anywhere, but the Church is where he found Aerith again. SE says that Cloud’s PL is where he awakens, and that he awakens in the Church. To me, that must mean that the Church is where Cloud was able to find Aerith again.

At the end of FFVII and in Reminiscence, Cloud says, "The Promised Land…. I think I can find her…. there."

So he says the Promised Land is where he can FIND her…. not where he can be with her. Once he’s found her again, then she can be with him anywhere. So the place where he finds her is his Promised Land.

The following is a passage from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition): 

The place where he awakens--- That is Cloud's Promised Land   As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.   When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.   And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.   Back to the current of life flowing around the planet

~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (Revised Edition) AC Playback

CloudxTifa supporters like to think that this passage is saying that Cloud's family is his Promised Land. However, the very first line specifically states that the place where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. That place is, of course, Aerith's Church.   Technically, the place where Cloud awakens is actually in the pool of Great Gospel rain water at the back of the Church, which is infused with positive Lifestream. The Lifestream is, of course, where Aerith's spirit actually is. Therefore, it's also possible that the passage is referring to the Lifestream as the place where Cloud awakens.

Quick answer: No, it's not

In 2010, many Cloti's started saying that the LTD is over and that Cloti is canon

In reality, Square Enix has never stated that either Cloti or Clerith is canon

Let's look further at some of the evidence:

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1) THE "FOR THE ONE I LOVE" PAGE

The "For the One I Love" page appeared in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania published by Square Enix. You can see a scan of that page below:

The heading on the page says this,

"For The One I Love  Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come."

On this page, we see pictures of the following couples:

Ingus and Sara (Final Fantasy III)

Cecil and Rosa (Final Fantasy IV)

Locke and Celes (Final Fantasy VI)

Cloud and Aerith (Final Fantasy VII)

Cloud and Tifa (Final Fantasy VII)

Squall and Rinoa (Final Fantasy VIII)

Steiner and Beatrix (Final Fantasy IX)

Zidane and Garnet (Final Fantasy IX)

Tidus and Yuna (Final Fantasy X)

FFVII is the only game where the main hero is shown with two different women. FFVII is also the only game where the scenes pictured on the page are both labeled as having optional versions. That can be seen in the pictures below taken from the page:

Red boxes have been drawn around the page numbers which appear above each picture. Those page numbers are there for additional information about each scene.

If you turn to the page numbers listed above both pictures, you will see an explanation about how each scene has optional versions.

From page 225 (above the Clerith Date scene)

Deviation Who is the date companion? Cloud's companion for the date is determined by your choices in the progress of the story. Whichever character amongst Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie and Barret has the highest value in the "affection rating" will be the one to invite Cloud out for the date; here are screenshots representing each. The course of each date is the same, but, as you can see, they each develop in their own way depending on the companion.

Page 232 (above the Highwind scene picture)

Deviation Two versions of the conversation before the final battle Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.

(photoedit by Clorith)

FFVII is treated differently on the "For the One I Love" page than any of the other games. That can only mean that who the main hero falls in love with in Final Fantasy VII happens differently from the other games. As mentioned earlier,

FFVII is the only game on the page where the same main hero is pictured with two different women.

If only one of the couples for FFVII shown on the "For the One I Love " page were canon, then wouldn't only one of the couples be shown on the page? That's what SE does for the other games.

Since two couples are shown on the page for FFVII, then either BOTH of the couples are canon or NEITHER of the couples are canon.

FFVII is also the only game on the page where the pictures of both couples are labeled by page numbers where the scenes are described as having optional versions.

Both the Clerith Date scene and the Highwind scene are labeled as having optional versions, and it's specified in both descriptions that which version a player gets is determined by the companion's affection level with Cloud. Since both scenes are specified as having optional versions which depend on the companion's affection level with Cloud, then which version a player gets is actually determined by the Date Mechanism.

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2) STATEMENTS BY SE ABOUT "MUTUAL FEELINGS"

Cloti's claim that certain statements made by SE indicate that Cloti is canon. According to Cloti's, these statements prove that the HA version of the HW scene is canon. Let's look at some of those statements:

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 15, Cloud's profile

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. " ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 27, Tifa's profile

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198, story summary

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." ~Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33, Tifa's profile

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." ~FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII's story summary

These are just a few of the statements, but it's typical of the statements being used by Cloti's to say that CloudxTifa is canon because it's canon for Cloud and Tifa to share romantic feelings during the HW scene.

In actuality, these statements only say that Cloud and Tifa they share "feelings" without saying what kind of feelings they share.

It's interesting because this picture from the LA version looks very much like the picture of the HW scene shown on the FTOIL page.

The fact is that Cloud and Tifa share feelings with one another in both the LA version and HA version of the HW scene, so it's not referring to any particular version of the scene.

Many Cloti's claim that these statements are referring to the HA version only because feelings aren't shared in the LA version. This is because of something said about the LA version in the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

“After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy” ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

See where it says that the LA version is "apathetic"? Many Cloti's say that "apathetic" means that NO feelings are shared in the LA version.

Well, in the first place, "apathetic" doesn't necessarily mean NO feelings. It can also mean that FEWER feelings or LESS INTENSE feelings are shared in the LA version.

In the second place, this is the only translation of this passage that we've seen. There is no official translation of this passage.

In the third place, we have to question whether "apathetic" is the only possible translation for that Japanese word. I know that when I translate from French or German to English, I usually find several possible translations for each word. So is "apathetic" the only possible translation? Probably not.

In the fourth place, these statements about "mutual feelings" were not written by the creators of FFVII (Nojima, Nomura, Kitase). Instead, these "mutual feelings" statements were written by members of Studio BentStuff, the staff members who write, edit, and compile the Ultimania's. For all we know, these members of Studio BentStuff never even played Final Fantasy VII. Considering that Studio BentStuff has written, edited, and compiled Ultimania's for at least 15 different SE games, which you can see LISTED HERE, it's questionable whether Studio BentStuff can be considered an expert or authority in those games.

In the fifth place, these statements about "mutual feelings" do not appear in the context of the LTD. Instead, they appear in places like story summaries and character profiles, where the LTD isn't being dealt with.

In the sixth place, look at the following passage, which appears in BOTH the LA and HA versions of the HW scene:

Tifa "......" (Cloud stands.) Cloud "We'd better go." (She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.) Tifa "But, I still...!?" (He turns to face her, shaking his head.) Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday." "At least we don't have to go on alone." (A pause. Tifa nods) Tifa "Yes... That's right!" (He nods) Cloud "Okay! Let's go!"

This passage occurs in BOTH the LA and HA versions of the HW scene. In this passage, Cloud and Tifa are saying that they are not alone because they have one another.

In the LA version, they obviously mean this on the basis of friendship only. In the HA version, it can be taken to signify a romantic relationship. However, the same feelings are expressed here in both versions - feelings of companionship, of being able to depend on one another, of confidence in one another, of being able to rely on one another, etc.

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3) AERITH'S DEATH

Many Cloti's seem to think that Cloud MUST move on with Tifa after Aerith's death. In the first place, that would only make sense if we knew for sure that Cloud does indeed love Tifa.

SE has said three different times that whether or not Cloud falls in love with Tifa depends on Tifa's affection level with Cloud, and that this is determined by the Date Mechanism:

1. “After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy” ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

2. “Deviation – Two versions of the conversation before the final battle Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.” ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

3. “Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together. At that moment,according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud, the event of “dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn” and “Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance” will be different.” ~FFVII Dismantled, page 201

SE has specified three different times that Cloud does NOT have to fall in love with Tifa, and that whether or not Cloud falls in love with Tifa depends on Tifa's affection level with Cloud (which is determined by the Date Mechanism). Therefore, SE has made it clear that Cloud does not HAVE to fall in love with Tifa.

The ONLY scene where SE says that Cloud and Tifa share mutual romantic feelings is specified as an optional scene that is dependent on game mechanics (the Date Mechanism). There is no non-optional scene where we see conclusive evidence that Cloud is in love with Tifa.

In the second place, just because Aerith dies doesn't mean that Cloud has to fall in love with Tifa. Think of the many people who lost loved ones in the many different wars that the US has been involved with. Some of those people moved on to love someone else, but not all of them did. We've also seen other Final Fantasy characters who didn't move on with someone else after a loved one dies, such as Laguna and Yuna. 

In the third place, Cloud was known to have a crush on Tifa when he was a kid - but does that mean he loves Tifa now? I had a wicked crush on a fellow classmate in my high school for several years, but I don't love him now. Not all childhood crushes turn into an adult romance. In fact, it's pretty rare when it does happen.

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 Anonymous asked you:

You need to stop tagging anti posts in the Cloti tag. Please have some decency.

Answer: I just looked at ALL of my posts for the past month, and NONE of those posts are tagged "Cloti".

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Anonymous asked you:

please untag "anti cloti" from your For the one i love post, it appears in the cloti tag. thanks.

Answer: My "For the One I Love" post is HERE. Please look at the tags - it's not tagged "anti-cloti".

I repeat what I said before. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to show the Clerith date scene on the FTOIL page if Cloti is indeed the canon pairing.

If Cloti were really the canon pairing of the FFVII Compilation, why show Cloud with another woman on the same page? There’s no other hero shown on the page with two different women, and there’s no other hero whose scenes are labeled as optional scenes.

The whole purpose of the FTOIL page is to show romantic couples from different games. Both Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa were shown on the page, so that means they’re both romantic couples. However, the FTOIL page also labels the Clerith Date scene and the Highwind scene as having optional versions.

And you’re saying that MIGHT be what Nomura means. Aren't you sure?

Quoting you: “IF he said he isn’t bothered about who loves who earlier, MIGHT be the sense he is using when he later references Cloud and Tifa.”

Frankly, it doesn’t sound like you’re sure about it at all. “IF he said” such and such, then it “MIGHT be the sense”.

Sorry, but that isn’t at all convincing. You say it MIGHT be the sense - well, it MIGHT also be the sense it was translated in the first place: that he doesn’t know what their relationship is.