#fandom debate

Not allies or heroes so not Jericho Drumm or Wong.

Basically like, what is a Charles/Erik or Doom/Reed or Superman/Lex or Optimus/Megatron level ship for Stephen Strange?

Mordo/Stephen isn’t big the way Steve/Bucky are even though the MCU friends/classmates/enemies angle is there.

On the comics side, I see Tony and Doom thrown into shipping with Stephen but they obviously have stronger ships integral to their character. I mean specifically in Stephen’s own book. Do comics fans not put in the effort because comic Mordo sucks? Does Dormammu not count because Clea is his niece and comics fans don’t want to because it would be weird?

Rivals Marvels has a lot of random mlm like Magneto and Namor but it doesn’t make much sense to me because the Charles ship is stronger, and for Namor they aren’t on the same level.

I know this is a many part question, sorry as someone who doesn’t go here. I wouldn’t ask if I could find out in the general comic fandom space. There doesn’t seem to be an obvious answer?

Hello! First of all, thank you so much for leaving such an amazing ask! One of my favorite subjects if I'm being honest hehe Secondly, sorry for taking a little bit to reply, I was taking my time to write this whole essay (and apologies in advance for the long post, I just really LOVE analyzing relationships and ships in general 😭)

Now back to the question... In all honesty, all I have is speculation on the reasons why Stephen doesn't have an iconic frenemyship like Cherik and Doomreed. I think it's valid to break down the most iconic ones but before we do, I also find important to state that most villains in Stephen's rogue gallery aren't human. And while it shouldn't be an issue for us (iykyk), it's not the most appealing kind of shipping to the general public. I mean, Symbrock exists to break that idea but also I understand that Stephen is not as popular as other heroes, MCU or not. And when he is, well... His most popular pair is Christine so...

Now let's dive into each villain!

Mordo

I think the two traits that outstand the most when considering Mordo as a potential ship are found in his very characterization: he's not only a loser but also not attractive to the general public. He was made to be a caricature of the ugly evil wizard archetype. On top of that, to me specifically, the main two reasons lie on the fact that Mordo canonically gaslighted and induced Stephen into drinking by giving him nightmares when he was just a kid, as well as the fact that he had ties with Hydra. Surely, toxic yaoi would not be a problem for the first one (we have Hannigram, the father of toxic yaoi ships, after all). But personally, the moment a character has ties with a n*zi organization, that becomes too much for me. Another thing is that Mordo isn't Stephen's equal. Sure, he was considered very strong in the past, but these days he's a just a loser who even can't beat Kaecilius when it comes to killing Stephen. Lastly (and again, that's just my opinion ofc), I believe Mordo lacks the appeal that the aforementioned ships have. Mordo has never EVER showed Stephen the slightest gesture of affection or attraction (perhaps by the end of the Sorcerer Supreme run, but only because he had cancer, convince me otherwise). Sure, he's obsessed, but not in a homoerotic way. Reed and Xavier are constantly trying to reach out for their opposites. Stephen gave up a long time ago (and believe me, he tried). Moreover, Stephen is able to see good in Doctor Doom of all people, but not Mordo. Because Mordo chose to be irredeemable.

Doctor Strange - Sorcerer Supreme #85. Doctor Strange v4 #21. Doctor Strange - Sorcerer Supreme Annual #3. The Death of Doctor Strange #4.

Surely, we're talking comics. When it comes to the MCU, I think Strordo has waaaay more appeal. But we also need to consider that 1) Mordo hasn't been relevant since 2016 when the first movie debuted, 2) he's underused and sidelined in MoM, even as a variant, and 3) he's played by a black actor. That automatically undermines him from the possibility of being part of a mainstream ship.

In conclusion, whether comics or MCU, Mordo never stood a chance.

Dormammu

I believe he is the most iconic of them all (or maybe I'm just biased). I mean, there's even a mention from Umar that Dormammu is too much obsessed and invested in Stephen to the point of considering a deeper meaning behind their relationship. Another thing that I find very telling is that Dormammu these days is used in many other books but he will end up comparing the protagonist to Stephen because, well... When you're obsessed with someone, it's just inevitable. So why isn't Dormstrange that popular? I honestly don't know. You mentioned Clea but I don't think that would be too much of an issue to undermine the ship (Piotr being Kitty's romantic interest for years never stopped Katyana shippers, for instance). I wonder if Dormammu lacks a stronger personality, or is it for the fact that he's an extradimensional being with a flaming head? I mean, I'm aware the ship exists and even if people are not fond of it, we can all agree that Dormammu is canonically obsessed with Stephen. Maybe he lacks the appeal that say, Mephisto lavishes? And speaking of...

Defenders v3 #4. One World Under Doom #4.

Mephisto

Well, I'm quite aware Mephisto isn't exclusively a member of Stephen's rogue gallery. If anything, I'd put him in Silver Surfer's and/or Ghost Rider's. But Mephisto has a very peculiar charming and obsession with Stephen because of the goodness in his soul. Breaking Stephen is a trophy that he would love to get, and for that, he needs to go deeper into Stephen's experiences and relationships. That's very appealing when you think about it. Plus the fact that Mephisto has beef with both Doctors Strange and Doom, which makes their dynamics even better because "wdym you're not siding with me but it's okay to side with DOOM of all people?" I often joke he's very jealous of their relationship, which isn't that far-fetched, after all. But let's be honest, shipping Strange with Marvel's literal satan is a bit off-putting and ooc from Stephen's perspective.

Damnation #1. Infamous Iron Man #12.

Nightmare

Now THAT'S MY FAVORITE SHIP ALRIGHT. And I'll try my hardest to be rational here, but no promises. In my opinion, Nightmare is the one who has the juiciest chemistry of all villains. I'll explain. First of all, Nightmare is the first villain to debut in Strange Tales. It's a bit sad that he isn't as iconic as Dormammu when he has SO MUCH potential. The master of bad dreams, a lord of fear and, on top of that, one that is actually willing to work with Stephen when needed? Yeah, that's the formula we're looking for. Like every other villain, Nightmare is also obsessed with Stephen and constantly trying to dominate him. But years of failing led him to a different path. He's definitely a bad guy, but he's rational enough to understand that he depends on humans (and their dreams) to thrive. That also means that he's smart to acknowledge that there are some threats that he can't face alone, hence the tendency to team up with his enemy.

More importantly, Nightmare actually had a redemption arc in his solo (yeah, that happened). And in human form! He gave SO MUCH Edward Nygma aura it was insane.

During that time, there was an attempt to convince Stephen he was a changed... entity?

Nightmare #1. Over the Edge #7.

Well, I know, I know, all to prove his romantic interest that he was a good man. That he changed for love. But we all know that Roxanne was merely an accessory to the plot (and terribly discarded by the last issue). Plus his connection to Stephen goes back to 1963. That's what we call an old rivalry.

Besides, let's not forget these panels.

War of the Realms - War Scrolls #2. Doctor Strange - Sorcerer Supreme #40; #53.

Oh, certainly the last one is referring to possession... Certainly...

And since we're here, I want to throw the fact that Nightmare was willing to leave his realm to Stephen in case he was killed. Plus many times he has warned him that some threat was looming.

Doctor Strange - Sorcerer Supreme #79.

Oh, the poetry in leaving your beloved steed and realm in your enemy's hands...

Still, I can't ignore the argument that Nightmare is often portrayed as a goblin of some sort, which would make him not very attractive. Well, lucky us modern artists are drawing him very twinkly 😌 (and even goth in an alt universe!)

Avengers United #44. House of Harkness #15.

That means that yes, Nightmare can change his shape (although forcibly, he was even portrayed as a woman once).

In short, we have an old rivalry, enemies to allies, even a little bit of banter and flirting... So what's preventing Strangenightmare from being popular? Two things.

First of all, Nightmare is problematic. I LOATHE with all my might what some stories did to female characters so I'll just say there's a very triggering plot about Betty Ross and Daydream. I truly despise this kind of plot because both victims and perpetrators are never addressed as they should. Then again, canon is a strong word for comic book readers. I'm particularly very fond of the idea that everything that I don't like is not canon deep down so it's up to you to decide what should be relevant or not. However, I cannot ignore that, technically, this plot still exists and it still applies.

Secondly, Nigthmare isn't popular. Moreover, he's been used as a sack of potatoes back and forth in many recent stories, from X-Men to Scarlet Witch to Avengers to Doctor Strange himself. Once a very frightening and dangerous enemy, today he's reduced to a supporting character, which is very painful to watch if I'm being honest.

We had the opportunity for a nice comeback with Marvel Mystic Mayhem, but well, the game fumbled real hard. The whole characterization and theme are on point for an amazing game but NetEase, man...

I think these two reasons alone prevent many fans from truly realizing the potential this ship brings to the table, unfortunately... If only we had the first movie starring Nightmare as Scott envisioned, I'm pretty sure the story would be completely different... But here we are.

--

And after all is said and done, the list highlights something I mentioned at the beginning: 3/4 are non-human villains. We could make a case for Umar (there's even a what if that they had a thing going on, which is... well, Clea is right there), but if we reaaaally think about it, Umar isn't human either despite her shape. I'd also like to give a shout-out to Vyrbodin, who's pretty new but an incredible candidate if his presence carries on. Not human either, though. Shuma-Gorath? Not human (tentacles and big eye only). Mr. Misery? Not human (goo only). Kaecilius, Adria, Demonicus? Veeery unpopular villains when it comes to 616. The struggle is real.

So you see, it's not surprising after all that Stephen ends up getting paired with villains from other fandom spaces like Victor (also their chemistry is just great in general). Some people may see it as an intrusion but really, Strange fans struggle a lot to find this specific kind of ship within his very mythos. We have excellent chemistry with Clea, Wong, the Defenders, the Midnight Sons... but a villain? It's very niche. Rilvary is also based on history and background, emotional connection, miscommunication, slow burn etc. None of those are found in Stephen's relationships with his villains (as I said, the closest to that is Nightmare).

There is a difference between “I ship this” and “I interpreted this as a relationship from what I’ve seen in canon”, because a lot of the time, at least for me, I don’t actually think a lot of what I ship would work well in canon, but I do think that the ship would work excellently if they had slightly different circumstances.

I really do not care if some of it looks bad or out of character; the creators of this show are clearly going for a very specific and planned-out idea.

I have no idea if I'll like it; in capacity of a GL show at least. I did, however, love True Detective.

To everyone already turning their noses up at what King, Mundy, and Lindelof are making, it may very well not be a show for you but perhaps give it a chance.

Weather new media should perfectly echo the former sources or attempt to forge its own identity is one of the oldest debates in fandom. While there can certainly be things that are valid to critique in new media, and you, of course, can flat out dislike it completely; I would rather give it a chance and see what there is on offer.

Well this is awkward.

You're just seething they didn't give show Dany the dreamer ability and projecting your spite towards Helaena.

Let's say that them not giving show Dany her canon dragon dreams was part of my thoughts when I was writing the post you respond to.

Dany actually had dreams...while canon Helaena, you and no one can ever prove that she did, so the real question is why is there a discrepancy in your mind as to why Dany shouldn't/couldn't have her canonical dreams while a less important character like Helaena should/could? Makes no sense.

I don't really care or feel strong emotions for or about Helaena bc she doesn't do much. Not because she is on the green side and little to do with her own choice in the matter. GRRM clearly uses her to make other characters compare Helaena to Rhaenyra, the Shepherd, the coming Dragonpit disaster, the degredation of Rhaenyra's control over KL, etc.

Also, why do you think it' a good thing or acceptable that they removed Dany's dreams, which are critical to understanding her arc, the Targs, the climatic catastrophe that is the Others, AND as this is a fantasy series...we need magical elements?! So, back to the discrepancy, I rather think it is you who is showing a bit of sexism: bc unlike Helaena, Dany is not a girl-woman who succumbs to the patriarchal violence but fights back and is going to enact revolutionary violence. If you say "Dany is an incest child", you should know that so are a lot of Westerosi people AND Dany is still that revolutionary, anti-exploitation figure.

It doesn't sound like you care much about "truth" or bigotry, so much as you are entertained and validated in the bigotry you already carry.

Have you actually seen the next seasons of this show to know they're not doing anything with her character and the dreamer ability itself? You know you're going to be so disappointed with your wishes.

If it takes 2 seasons to properly distinguish a character (aside from establishing that they have an ability) as to what kind of person they are and that you had since the second half of the first, you've done something wrong. So, yes, HotD dropped the ball and it does have to do with sexism either on the writers or the execs, like how Legend of Korra wasn't given as much of a chance as it should have been. Whether bc of production stuff or imagination. Espec since there have been characters people actually made into real people in just s few scenes (the rest going off from that point) and that has not happened for Helaena yet...when it should have in the first season. And if you say "bc studios and execs are cutting down stuff for costs", then that just hammers in the point that this is not a good story bc it was not allowed to breathe and develop. It's just unearned spectacle after spectacle.

Right now, Helaena is still just a person who says stuff and people ignore or to characterize/reflect more on Aegon and Jacaerys (dance scene).

All you have to say is you hate that they gave Helaena a compelling ability that you wish your favs have.