#crowtalks

I feel like I dislike Saiouma because their canon dynamic went against the themes of the work. Kokichi, as a character, represents lies, which is one of the major themes of Drv3. (The same way Makoto represents hope and Junko represents despair) This seems really obvious to say, but is important to my point. A characters relationship with Kokichi should mirror their relationship with lies.

A good example of this done right is Kaito. Listen, his writing irks me, but his relationship with Kokichi is one of my favorite things about him. (Still can't get behind Oumota bc of Kaito's personality, but that doesn't mean I dislike the foils OR the shippers)

Kaito pretends to hate lies, as heroes should. But his heroic personality is in fact, a lie he tells. Not out of malice, but because that's who he wants to be. (Think Kaito:Hero as Gundam:Dark God) He lies to protect people, and hide his illness. As a result, he's willing to work with Kokichi to... protect Maki, conceal his identity, (which includes hiding his illness) and from a certian POV, be a hero! It makes perfect sense.

Another good example of this is Maki. She hates Kokichi, because she hates lies. Her hatred of Kokichi is actually tied to him revealing one of her lies, a lie that was causing her quite a lot of stress. But... she also directly benefits from Kokichi. He saved her life. Unrelated tangent (sarcasm), what was revealed to be a lie in Ch6? Her feelings for Kaito. Let me rephrase that sentence: She hates LIES but she also directly benefits from them (her feelings for Kaito improving her mental health)

I wish that theme carried over into other characters the same way it did for those two. There are some other parallels I can draw (Ryoma liking Kokichi to an extent, Kirumi playing tag with him) but those two are the most obvious and explicit.

So its sad that characters with a complicated relationship with lies don't also have a complicated relationship with Kokichi, the embodiment of lies.

Himiko lives a lie. Lying is needed for her job. But her lies almost got her killed in chapter 2, and Tenko going along with her lie doesn't help. How does this reflect in her interactions with Kokichi? It doesn;t.

Kaede lied to us, the motherfucking audience. Honestly, thats arguably just as impressive as Kokichi ever pulled. What is her relationship with Kokichi? Kokichi acts sort of like a mentor figure to HER in the tunnels, and stands up against her. I like that, but give that plot beat to someone else. (Kaito makes the most sense, but give it to Tenko since I love her.)

Danganronpa itself is a lie, a work of fiction. And Tsumugi is obsessed with it.

In fact, this applies to the v3 casts dynamic with Kokichi as a whole. Almost everyone dislikes and distrusts Kokichi, despite the big reveal of being liars themselves. I'd write it as "everyone pretends to hate Kokichi (lies), but actually don't mind him that much. However, they think everyone else hates Kokichi so they go along with the group." to foreshadow the big reveal that they themselves are lies told by Tsumugi.

And Shuichi suffers from this the most.

Shuichi's Ch1 arc is summed up by "Shuichi learns to face the truth for the first time with that case, and stops averting his eyes." In other words, on the Truth vs Lies scale, Shuichi begins the series aligned with LIES.

The rest of the game shows Shuichi gradually becoming a paragon of Truth to go against Kokichi's lies- ONLY FOR IT TO BE REVEALED IN CH6 THAT HE HIMSELF IS A LIE.

That he is, a fictional character and a pawn in someone elses game. It then becomes a Schrodinger's cat on the alignment scale I mentioned earlier. Was Shuichi's journey to the Truth end of the scale fake or not?

The game settles upon a hesitant no at the end of it, (I disagree, since the games mechanics tell a different story) when Shuichi ventures out into the world with the other survivors to find the truth upon whats out there.

Thats a HECK of a complicated relationship with lies. It should equal a heck of a complicated relationship with Kokichi, right? WRONG.

The canon Saiouma dynamic is basically

"Kokichi likes and teases Saihara, while Shuichi is annoyed by Kokichi until his death, when he gradually begins to come around. Despite this, Kokichi (and the lie mechanic) is surprisingly helpful in trials"

(actually the localization changed this quite a bit, but I'm going off the English version since this is what I actually played. That being said, its a fascinating topic that you should look into if you're as obsessed as I am.)

While the fanon is more akin to:

"Shuichi gradually gets drawn in by Kokichi and learns to accept his quirks."

(maybe shippers will disagree with me about those dynamics, since again, not my cup of tea.)

Meanwhile a Saiouma dynamic I can get behind is:

"Shuichi is drawn in by Kokichi (lies), and feels a sort of magnetism to him. But he knows it isn't a good idea, and he knows it isn't right. Kokichi's feelings are unclear at first due to his nature, but it turns out he has a love-hate relationship with Shuichi (truth). He'll rely on him sometimes, but rebuff him at others with seemingly no logic from his end."

In other words, I'd do a semi-reversal of the canon dynamic.

NOTE: I am not saying I'm a writing genius or anything. Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure if Kodaka could magically remake his games he'd stomp my rewrite to the ground.

You asked why I dislike it, and that's my explanation. But please allow me to go a step further and speculate why things are this way.

At about the same time you sent me your ask, my good friend Crow sent me this:

"I don't like Saiouma because well Komahina is exactly what the black romance should be while Saiouma is just feels like another Shuichi ship. Do you get my point?

Shuichi and Hajime is entirely different characters while Komaeda and Kokichi different af too like, they can't hit the Komahina dynamic like they intended to do, this is why Saiouma is just another Shuichi ship while Komahina is THE SHIP.

If you want to do a homoerotic Shuichi ship who would be the next Komahina you shouldn't do that with Kokichi at all, maybe Rantaro? But Rantaro isnt work well too like there is no Komaeda for him to work the Komahina. Saiouma felt poorly executed idea of a black romance, if I need to be honest Oumaede would be more fitting for the Komahina dynamic despite Kaede is just pov character.

So yeah there is no Komahina in drv3 because they tried to play the same tropes with very different characters and very different stories, I even felt more interested in Saihoshi despite Ryoma only been around 2 chapters than Kokichi. That is the problem in here"

I felt like I can't answer one of these asks without referencing what I said in the other ask, so I just both answered them both together. (no hard feelings?)

In case you haven't read Homestuck (wise call, honestly) Black romance is basically non-sexual hatefucking. Usually, there's an undertone of mutual respect, but not always. Felt like that context was important.

Komeada and Kokichi ARE different characters. From a narrative standpoint, Komeada completely turns existing themes like Hope and Talent into complex issues in the Drverse, while in THH they were pretty black and white. Meanwhile, Kokichi's introduction is the introduction to the theme of truth vs lies.

In other words (Makoto is to Nagito (and later to Hajime and Izuru) as Kokichi is to Shuichi) The second takes the theme from the first, and massively expands on it! ...Despite Shuichi and Kokichi being in the same game.

Despite this, the reason people think they are similar is because Kokichi piggybacks too hard on Nagito and Komahina's success.

What does Nagito have in common with Togami, other than being an antagonistic force. Not much, actually! Togami fucked up a corpse while Nagito fucked up his own body, and that distinction is all that needs to be said I think.

Togami would look down upon Nagito if they ever met, and Nagito'd be into that.

What does Kokichi have in common with Nagito?

They want to make an unsolvable murder in which poison was involved and they got someone to kill them.

They both have a one sided crush on their protagonist, that the protagonist doesn't think exists. (Kokichi confessed, but perks of being a chronic liar)

They both are the MVP in almost every trial they are in, with one notable exception for each of them. Thats... kind of a lot, actually! I do think they are noticeably different characters, especially on a thematic level, but I can see why people notice that. I can also see why people would find that bad! Nagito was the star of Dr2, hands down. If you were one of the few people that isn't a total Nagito simp, then a very simmilar character getting screentime might be annoying since you have Nagito fatigue from the last game. and if you are a Nagito simp, then Kokichi will likely never be his own dude with so much in common. You'll see him as a lesser Nagito and want him back. I agree with Crow when he says "Saiouma just feels like another ship. I found it hard to articulate why I feel that paradoxically feels like a rip-off of another ship I liked, but also had no bite to it. And then it hit me. Until Chapter four, Kokichi never did anything that warranted Nagito levels of hatred. (of course, this is entirely subjective. I hate Kaito pretty much for being annoying and fitting into tropes I dislike without commenting on it. If you think this is enough to hate Kokichi, power to you!) By the end of chapter one of Dr2, Nagito:

Attempted to 1st degree murder a fan-favorite character, with a deliberately confusing and unsympathetic (at this point in time) motive to do so.

Goaded another character (that most fans hated, but still) into committing that murder FOR him. The only time we ever saw that level of insanity was Celeste, and Teruteru is no Hifumi in terms of gullibility. (Celeste had plot armor anyway.)

Sat back and monologues while everyone's ass was on the line. If Hajime and the others voted wrong, everyone would have died.

Showed NO remorse over any of it. Seemed to enjoy it.

This one is more meta but: he shows despair eyes, which previously were only seen on the big bad of the first game. Characters have every reason to hate the guy. Soda and Nekomaru were absolutely correct in taking him out, and I'd argue that you should maybe go father by putting him in a public area and gagging his mouth unless it's mealtime. Meanwhile, by chapter three, Kokichi has:

Stood up to Kaede in the tunnels, which most students agree was the right call.

Showed emotions over Rantaro's death, but due to his lying they can't be sure if they were genuine.

Was civil (if a bit wierd) to Kaede right before her execution.

Bullied Kiibo. Yes, bullying is- bad but look me in the eye and tell me its worse than murder. You can't.

Shared the motive videos in the insect meet and greet. This is the major strike against him, but its reasonable to assume he did this with good intentions.

While doing that, tortured them with bugs when it wasn't really needed for the plan to work.

(okay, this one didn't actually happen and I will die on this hill, but the main group thinks it did so I'm counting it) Tricked Gonta into helping with his plans.

Saved our asses in the second trial.

Saved our asses in the post-trial portion of chapter 2

Not joined a cult that was forming in our school. Also did not stop Gonta from joining the cult, which doesn't point to a pattern of controlling behavior from Shuichi's POV.

Was key in getting to Angie's body. Pun intended.

Helped out during the seance.