The difference between Cronus and Meenah vis-à-vis predation is that Meenah is afforded a lot of nuance in her moral failings, and Cronus is not. Meenah also has far more to her character than her moral failings. Cronus does not. This makes it easier and more understandable to be a fan of Meenah despite her grooming of (Vriska) being a major arc than it is Cronus, who is given virtually zero traits or depth outside of being an awful person. Nuance is not the function of Cronus’s character. The function of his character is to be the Worst Character in Homestuck.
Cronus’s entire character is that he is an awful, irredeemable person, point blank period, there is no fixing him, there is no making him sympathetic, there is no nuance here, don’t even fucking try. Meenah’s character is that she is a bad person, and here’s how she ended up this way. She is afforded explanation. She is afforded nuance. She’s given some degree of complexity.
Cronus is an abuser, knows full well that he’s an abuser, labels his actions as abuse, and does not care, because he cares for nothing other than himself, his ability to get off, and his ego. Meenah is an abuser, is aware but in denial of this, cares quite a lot about it, but continues anyway because she thinks her being an abuser is an inevitability that she must accept because of her caste.
There’s more intrigue in there. Meenah also played far more of an active role in her session and in the story, which makes her far easier to like and care about despite her being not a good person. Cronus is there for five seconds, seemingly didn’t do anything interesting in his session other than become a rapist because a clown told him he isn’t Harry Potter, and genuinely just doesn’t have any good reason for being the way he is. There’s legitimately just more substance to Meenah’s character. It’s not even a competition. The only reason some people act like it is a competition is because they’re stupid and misogynistic.
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sorry if this ask is a little odd or just flat out wrong but i need unbiased facts here
ive always assumed cronus was written not just to be the worst but also to say "this is NOT how you write eridan. ever."
is that true?
and also. im planning on making a beforus trolls story arc rewrite (flat out rewriting the characters) should i leave cronus as he is or dissect him fully?
No. He was partially a response to fanon!Eridan - particularly the genre of fanon!Eridan invented by Avid Eridan Haters where he's a noxious super-predator - but not that kind of response. The Alpha Trolls, when responding to fanon versions of the Beta Trolls - something that is really not as common as most would lead you to believe - are not really "corrective" in their commentary. They're more mocking, than anything. There's no intent to be productive, in the same way there is no intent to be productive with the Beta Trolls' embodiments of archetypes of Internet Guy.
I'm not sure what you intend with the notion of a "Cronus dissection". Keep as many of his traits as you can or else it's just not going to be Cronus. Cronus is intended to be entirely unsympathetic and a fully negative force. But it is important to note that the kind of guy that Cronus is isn't uncommon. Cronus is not special. There's several million of him in the Americas alone.
It's best to always keep in mind how fucking rancid he is and to never change the fact that he's rancid, but it's equally important to never overdramatize it. It really isn't fantastical at all. He's intentionally irredeemable, intentionally impossible to sympathize with, but so is every privileged, entitled, hyper-bigoted rapist in this world.
Nekro, I'm very glad to have your blog exist. You are a shining beacon of hope. I need your input on somebody's opinion, somebody's very bad no good opinion. Somebody told me that Cronus and Mituna was just "blackrom flirting", which is supposedly "no different than normal trolls playfighting". They also told me that Cronus is a GENUINE HERO because of Dualscar! I need your input on this. I want you to tell me everything wrong with this. You don't have to, but I just love seeing you analyze stuff and this particular person's statements made me genuinely angry
Hey, thanks! That means a lot, really! <3
This one's easy. I fear I have to put this under the cut, however, due to... Cronus... Cronusing.
Content Warning: Detailed Discussions and Depictions of Abuse and Sexual Assault. Cronus is there.
Absolutely zero indication is given that it is BlackRom Flirting, or even "Flirting" at all. Just because someone is interacting with someone sexually does not mean it is flirting, or even that they're attracted to them. In this case, it is at the barest minimum Sexual Harassment, but if we are being completely honest about the events that are happening on screen, this is Sexual Assault.
Cronus is not attracted to Mituna. This is not BlackRom. This is just abject hatred from someone who is deeply entitled and wishes to control the bodies of his peers, but especially the bodies of those he deems most vulnerable. Some people counter that idea with the fact that he is literally Sexually Assaulting him here, but that requires a major misunderstanding of why people commit Sexual Assault. It is not about Love, or Lust. Oftentimes, rapists are not attracted to their victims at all. Sexual Violence is an act of Violence, not an act of Attraction. Sexual Abuse is, like all other modes of Abuse, about Control, not about Love. Abusers isolate you from your loved ones and limit your access to your money/car/phone to increase their control over you and your ability to flee or get help. They demean you, lovebomb you, and gaslight you to control your sense of self worth and your sanity. They beat you to control your behavior. They sexually assault you to control your entire sense of bodily autonomy. This is how you get Heterosexual Men sexually assaulting other Men or Boys, or Heterosexual Women sexually assaulting other Women or Girls. It is not about attraction, it is about control, and it is about violence.
If I may be candid - I've been assaulted more times than I can count in my life. I can safely say that almost every single person who laid their hands on me in that way was in no way attracted to me, they just thought I was an easy target, and wanted to control me because I was an "Other" at the nigh bottom of the social hierarchy. Violence and Control. Not Attraction. Not Love. Not Lust. Pure Violence.
It does not take much thought to realize that Cronus is completely and utterly disgusted by Mituna and everything he represents - it's just that Mituna is also an extremely vulnerable person with extensive issues with communicating due to his speech impediments and his TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury), and a storied history of not being believed by his peers. He is, in essence, a Perfect Victim.
You do not need to look further for proof on Cronus literally just hating and being disgusted by Mituna than his comment about how he wishes he could kill him for being disabled, and the only reason he didn't was because it would have negative social consequences. Killing Mituna would make him lose control over his own social life. So he doesn't, and he resents Beforus for not being the right kind of Eugenicist to enable that murder. I don't think I need to tell you that this would be a Hate Crime.
I also do not think I need to state that Mituna is not attracted to Cronus, considering the first set of screenshots show nothing but a visceral rejection of all advancements being made towards him. Over and over again, he reiterates his lack of consent, and Cronus just keeps on touching him while constantly Verbally Abusing him for being disabled. At most, one could say Mituna experiences an odd kind of "Fawn Response" to his abuse, possibly hoping that playing the role of a friend will make things not as bad, when really all it does is just open up more opportunities for abuse.
I think it's noteworthy that Mituna has a few speech impediments that effect most of his speech, except for key phrases that he says a lot, and/or is making active effort to say clearly. The implication behind how clearly Mituna is speaking while constantly repeating his lack of consent is positively dismal, especially in conjunction with the fact that Cronus is doing this outside, in a public area, seemingly implying that this is so routine that he isn't even being careful about it anymore... But what's even more depressing is that this clarity continues into Mituna's near constant apologies - many of which are prompted by Cronus, as a reflexive response to abuse.
Also, there's my favorite piece of evidence that this is abuse... The fact that Cronus calls it that, point blank. He just admits to it.
He calls his own actions abuse. Yes, it's sandwiched in... Hmm. Manipulating Meenah to get her off of his case for being abusive towards Mituna by redirecting the guilt onto her for actions that she didn't even do herself...
... But that was still a tacit admission of guilt, was it not? He calls his actions abuse.
Everyone go home. Discourse over. He admits to it. We can all throw bricks at anyone denying it now.
Also, Dualscar was not a hero, and neither is Cronus. Dualscar? Hero? Fucking Dualscar? Orphaner Dualscar was a slave owner who was having a real good time in a BlackRom with a straight up rapist, only to die because he literally couldn't tell a good joke to save his life when he went to tell on her.
The closest Cronus gets to "heroism" is the fact that a prophecy was told to him once, which he assumed to be about him, and then got really upset when it was not about him. It was literally just a Harry Potter joke, though, and also - again - did not happen.
He isn't a hero, he doesn't fill the archetype of a hero, nothing. He's also just pathetic, and now he's the one who's the sexual abuser, rather than Aranea taking that role herself.
Everyone go home. Get outta here. Shoo. SHOO!!!!
Discourse Over!!!!!! I've solved all of it. Thank you for reading.
People in the Cronus v. Vriska debate will also completely ignore that Cronus. Really wants to kill people. He just says that. No obfuscation included.
He doesn’t even have any excuse for it. Vriska killing people makes sense because she grew up on Alternia and had to feed her Lusus. Cronus just wants to kill people because he wants to do murder-eugenics and is really fucking mad murder-eugenics isn’t legal and does in fact have social consequences. Cronus just wants to kill disabled people for being disabled and not get in trouble for it. He explicitly says he wishes culling “meant what it should have” on Beforus.
Vriska was born and raised on Alternia, and that’s not her fault. It is, in fact, an entirely new level of fucking deranged to want Alternian laws to be real. Growing up in a system where killing people deemed below you is okay is different from wishing you lived in a system where killing people deemed below you is okay, because growing up there inherently means that that is already normal to you, while wishing that was the case inherently means it is not normal to you, you just want more harm to befall specific out groups (the lower class, the disabled, etc.) and to hurt more people in more violent ways.
People also love to casually ignore that Cronus is a grown adult. Like, sure, he’s 19, and 19 years old is pretty young in the grand scheme of things, but he is still a grown ass man who knows better. Him knowing better and simply not caring is literally a major part of his character. He is a grown ass man who can make his own legal decisions and live on his own. He can pay taxes. He could buy a house. He could invest in the stock market. In some countries, he can legally drink. He can drive. He can drink and drive. He can go die in the military. He’s grown. He’s a grown ass man. Vriska is 13. That is a child. Like, a CHILD child. Vriska is a middle school child. This is the difference between a middle schooler and a college student. Think of how mentally developed you were at 13. You weren’t even done with puberty yet. You’re not even done growing at that age. Cronus can fucking vote. He can go to adult prison. If you spotted a kid Vriska’s age out roaming the street with no guardian in sight, you’d probably be worried.
A major part of Cronus’s character is that he is a terrible person by choice, willingly, knowingly, and does not care. He is making a decision. Him being shitty and awful is a conscious choice he is making. He knows he is hurting people, and he knows what he is doing is terrible, and he does not care. Cronus knows that trying to bang children 6 years his junior is bad. He doesn’t care. He knows he is abusing Mituna, he calls it abuse, and he knows abuse is bad. He doesn’t care. He knows sex crimes are bad. He doesn’t care. He’s too entitled to care about anyone but himself and his own gratification.
Vriska is a 13 year old anti-hero who literally gets groomed and is shown to only be Like That because she is extremely traumatized and her experience of living on Alternia has made it so her guard is up 24/7. She literally cannot put the metaphorical swords down. She thinks it’s the only thing keeping her alive.
Cronus does not have an excuse.
That is, like… The Point.
The point is that he sucks and is irredeemable. He doesn’t have a single quality that makes standing around him worthwhile. He’s a relentless, unapologetic abuser. He just doesn’t care. He’s the most entitled man to ever live. He sees people as punching bags and sex toys, and any time this notion is rejected or faces even the slightest pushback, he freaks the fuck out about it.
And the point with Vriska is that she is complicated, and a child. A really, really traumatized, really, really scared child.
I don’t know, I think there’s a party here that is objectively worse.
… And - hear me out! - I think… I think it’s the adult sex predator… And not the child.
do you think cronus redemption is possible picking up from where the comic left off? like if he walked right out of openbound into an immediately post-A7 earth c could a competent author wrangle him into a decent guy without retcons, or is he just That Bad
Extremely firm No. He's just That Bad.
I don't trust a single god damn Homestuck writer, fan or official, to try to take Cronus Ampora and "redeem" him. He's the worst on purpose. That's his whole function. He's trying to bang 13 year olds, including ones he's related to. A 13 year old Karkat rejected his advances, and he stalked him to his house and tried to break into it. He's into eugenics. He's violently abusive. He's a sexual predator. He feels deeply entitled to the affection of others and their bodies, and mild rejection results in either violence or extreme emotional manipulation. He's so bigoted it's both nauseating and comedic. He knows all of these things and he does not care. He admits to knowing this about him. He admits he's doing it on purpose. He admits that he does not care for improvement, and he admits that he does not care that he is hurting people.
He is expressly beyond redemption. That's the point. I don't want to see anyone trying to "redeem" a character who is, again, fundamentally irredeemable. Let him be the worst. That's the point. He is way more interesting that way.
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Would you be willing to talk more on Cronus's ableism indicating Hussie's growth?
Early Homestuck has quite flippant usage of the R-Slur. It’s treated as basically just a synonym for “stupid”, and just about every character drops it at least once, even if it honestly makes no sense for the character to be using that kind of edgy language.
You don’t quite notice it getting phased out of Hussie’s vocabulary in later Acts, until it returns again in Cronus almost using it a few times as a genuine slur against a disabled man, and the whole time he’s being framed as the biggest fucking asshole to ever live about it. He is, in text, “The Worst Character in Homestuck”, and one of the reasons why is that he’s using words that Hussie used to use casually as a weapon against someone.
That is indicative of growth, and it’s very fascinating. I’ve seen no one bring it up other than me.
do you have any thoughts on how some of the alphas fit their classpects? im struggling to figure it out with rufioh, porrim and cronus
Plenty. I can do that real easy. With those specific characters, even.
Rufioh Nitram, Rogue of Breath, is very social, charismatic, and free-spirited, and leaves people breathless but also steals their sense of independence when he enters their lives.
Despite everything he's done to Damara, she still sticks by him, and even though Horuss knows Rufioh wants to break up with him, he still sticks by him and staunchly denies him any opportunity to carry through, because he's staked his entire sense of direction and identity on Rufioh's presence in his life.
Porrim Maryam, Maid of Space, becomes more obvious when you realize Space is an aspect deeply tied to femininity. Due to her talks on how Misogyny exists on Beforus and her avid belief in Feminism, it's not difficult to assume she had her sense of womanhood defined for her and dominated by men earlier in her life, and later on found empowerment through Feminism. Maid of Space, Made of Femininity.
Cronus Ampora, Bard of Hope, is a hopeless fuckhead. He is beyond help, he is beyond repair, and he crushes the hopes of the people around him. He used to be quite full of a genuine belief in magic and prophecy, particularly because said prophecy centered around who he assumed to be himself, but that belief got extinguished presumably by Kurloz, and now he doesn't believe in anything other than his entitlement to other people's bodies.
Like, I don't personally believe WV would be allergic to being a mentor or something of a father figure, but I do have to wonder the level to which he was wigged out by the way that Dave and Karkat treat him, because Dave in particular imprints on him in a way that is... Kind of strange.
The later portions of Homestuck really baby WV. It's upsetting.
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Easy. The actual things wrong with them.
A lot of the discourse surrounding them is fabricated, or has such poor priorities it might as well be fabricated. Most critical conversations about them surrounds things people just made up over the course of years of mythologizing their #Problematicness.
For Example: Most of the discourse surrounding why Horuss had problematic writing had to do with how he was "Bad Otherkin Representation", when the real issue was the fact that Hussie was conflating Being Otherkin with having a Dissociative Disorder, and in turn saying both of them are the exact same level of Fake And Gay for the exact same reason, because to Hussie they were the same thing. To this day, people get startled every time I point out that Horuss is canonically a System despite him bringing it up just as regularly as he does being Therian. Those are totally wack priorities.
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...That's scary... I don't even have words...
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LOL. The Lost Weeaboos was a Grade A bit. Thank you Aranea, very cool.
Honestly, I don't even count Cronus as a "facade character", because it's not like he's making any efforts to hide jack shit. It's been... Interesting, watching several people refer to "his facade" lately, when, like... What are they talking about, honestly? He's pretty bold-faced about his whole deal. This isn't really a Dave situation where you could be capable of falling for it when you're younger, because Cronus couldn't be doing a worse job at "hiding" how awful he is. He's not even trying, because he knows he can get away with it. What are the other Alphas gonna do? Leave?
Hope you're having a good time!! The Alpha Trolls may be a Trash Heap, but they are my Trash Heap.
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There comes a point where it's almost comedic how unaware people are of it... Like, what do you mean you know he's a Horse Therian but not that he's a System? He literally calls himself the Host of a System and talks about Switching. IN THOSE TERMS. He's not even obfuscating it by using some esoteric Troll terminology, he is LITERALLY using the words "Host", "System", and "Switching".
It's painful. I know this is a moment befitting of an XKCD comic, but... Jeez. You'd think these things would both be on the same level of common knowledge, considering how they're traits that are directly related to each other and given equal amounts of screen time, but nope!
Unfortunately, it is a situation where this is relevant. Sad!
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All characters will become AroSpec and/or ASpec with the help of my Beam Attack.
... Except for Cronus. It's just not funny when it's him. Due to The Themes. It's not fun to headcanon a character as any minority when a huge part of their character is that they pretend to be minorities for Pity Points to eventually cash in for Sex. Ew. Making him literally anything other than Just Cronus plays directly into so many vile Queer stereotypes it's insane. Those are stereotypes that have gotten people actually genuinely killed. Just... Ew. Gross.
