I think Andromache has a lot of potential to be a subversion or deconstruction of the "ideal woman" trope. She is so often portrayed as the perfect wife and mother: devoted to Hector, loving toward Astyanax, obedient, and composed. But what happens when she is also expected to be the perfect enslaved woman? Something breaks in Andromache after she is made a slave by Pyrrhus. She develops a kind of rage she has never felt before, a silent rage, but rage nonetheless. She is not completely passive or accepting of her fate by her captor. And I think this becomes even more complicated when she becomes pregnant with Molossus and develops postpartum depression. Andromache can perhaps rationalize her inability to become the "perfect slave woman" because she was a queen. She has lost her status, her family, her home, and almost everything that once defined her. But motherhood is different. She was a mother before, and now she is a mother again, yet she is unable to love her child in the ways she believes a mother is supposed to. That could create a really interesting internal conflict for her. She might even wonder whether she has genuine affection for Molossus, or whether it is purely opportunistic something driven by survival rather than genuine maternal love. And that guilt could be especially painful because of the expectations placed on mothers. There is this idea that a mother should automatically and unconditionally love her child no matter what and that failing to experience that immediate affection makes her a bad mother or even a bad woman. Andromache could internalize that expectation and conclude that something is fundamentally wrong with her because she cannot simply be the loving mother her society expects her to be. In that sense, her postpartum depression would challenge the idealized image of Andromache herself (and motherhood in general). The "perfect wife and mother" is not actually invulnerable, endlessly patient, or incapable of resentment. She can experience rage, grief, numbness, guilt, love, and even contradictory feelings toward her own child. I also have a headcanon that Andromache experienced postpartum depression after Astyanax was born, but that it was much shorter-lived and she managed to make sure nobody noticed. That would make her experience with Molossus even more painful, because this time she cant hide it from herself as easily.
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no matter how much I love Astyanax lives AU and Epic Musical in principle (Yes, I think this is a really good modern version of Odyssey)...
But damn it, the fact that Odysseus is going to raise Astyanax is a damn terrible concept
I would damn well throw myself into the sea if I found out that I was raised all his life in house by a murderer of my family and a genocider of my homeland...
RETURN THE BABY TO HIS FAMILY!
i think the bravest thing Epic the musical did was have Odysseus kill Astyanax, and people writing fix it fics where he saves him really robs him of his moral greyness.
the whole concept absolves Odysseus at Andromache's expense. in these AUs she is never more an incubator or a surrogate. it's as though she only brought him into the world and cared for him until his true father, Odysseus, came along. they might mention Astyanax looking for her, but he never finds her, never goes back to her. she is enslaved and suffering offscreen, believing he is dead while he moves on with his shiny new family. out of sight, out of mind.
honestly, a lot of the vibes around "Odysseus adopts Astyanax" AUs make me think of real life cases of children who are essentially trafficked into adoption. there was a case years ago where a woman who was deported from America had her child taken and adopted by an American couple, who changed his name and refused to let her have any contact. she was a perfectly capable mother, but the courts ruled that because she had crossed the border illegally and because the family that adopted him were wealthy, he was better off with them. nobody considered what it might do to him to grow up and learn he had another name and a loving mother who fought to get him back but was banned from even seeing him. that his childhood was legally sanctioned kidnapping.
i acknowledge that this is also personal for me, because i've also had a family member temporarily have their baby taken from them when they did nothing wrong, so i saw first hand how painful it is and the lasting mental health impact on the mother, even now years later when they're reunited and the kid is doing great.
honestly, the best case scenario is that Astyanax grows up loved by Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus, only to one day learn that all this time, his true mother believed he was dead and suffered as a slave only a few day's travel away.
but more likely, he would have complicated relationships with Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus, (to Odysseus he will always be a reminder of his guilt, and i can see Telemachus being jealous because Astyanax got to grow up with Odysseus present, when he didn't. and who knows how Penelope might feel about Odysseus springing this child on her?), never quite fitting in to the Greek culture of Ithaca, othered by his Trojan features, but having no connection to Trojan culture either. i highly doubt Odysseus would make any effort to bridge that gap, he would expect Astyanax to assimilate.
i've posted before about a fic idea i have where Odysseus takes Astyanax, but it follows the worst case scenario instead, and indeed culminates in him throwing himself into the sea because he can't see any way to a happy ending.
and the thing is, there are Trojan family members he can be with instead. Odysseus can still spare him, but give him to somebody else. i have him be raised by Oenone on Mount Ida. i also like the idea of him going with Aeneas, growing up alongside his cousin Ascanius and being reunited with Andromache when Aeneas gets lost and winds up in Epirus. or you could have him be given to any number of Trojan women, it's not as if he had a shortage of aunts. hell, even give him to Hecuba on Odysseus' ship, at least that's his grandma. or have him be raised by a random Trojan shepherd, like Paris was. @ibrithir-was-here has a great AU where he is spared and given back to Andromache, which is the happiest option by far.
and don't even get me started on that one "Odysseus adopts Cassandra" post. that is a grown woman! you're just infantilising her because she has a mental illness coded curse! he genocided her people and enslaved her mum, she would not call them her new family! she would fucking kill Odysseus in his sleep!
I would love to hear even more about how you talk about the relationship between Pyrrhus (I never or very rarely call him Neoptolemus... for my own reasons) and Helenus
It's just that their relationship is truly something else in the best sense of the word. Helenus is his war prize just like Andromache, and their relationship is no less complex than Pyrrhus's relationship with Andromache, even if from the outside it looks better. Helenus cares for him and is most likely grateful that it was Pyrrhus who took him rather than someone else. Helenus acts as his advisor and a sort of father figure, but the power dynamic still remains because Helenus is a slave—moreover, a war prize and a prince of a ruined kingdom... All of this is so damn complicated and tangled
Pyrrhus is doing terrible things; he is young and traumatized, and he needs at least someone by his side
Did Pyrrhus cry while on Helenus's knees, and was Helen forced to calm and comfort him even though he didn't want to? Did Helenus feel even a drop of sadness or the anticipation of grief as he let Pyrrhus go to Delphi, knowing that he would not return? Was this attachment for both of them something more than just another handful of their lives?
@freezer-bride-your-sweet-divine
yes! their relationship is so complicated and fun to dig in to. i also prefer to call him Pyrrhus, i think Neoptolemus is a name he takes on as he goes to war, so only his fellow soldiers use it and he never feels like it truly fits him. anyone who knows the real him calls him Pyrrhus.
i think Helenus himself was around 17 when the war began, so he sort of understands what it's like to be a child soldier, albeit not as young. but many of his siblings were even younger and he saw the toll it took on them and tried to be there for them to help them through it. they had this huge family supporting one another which made it easier.
so when he meets Pyrrhus he sees his little siblings in him and wants to do the same. Pyrrhus doesn't have that support system- the only guidance he gets is from soldiers like Odysseus and Diomedes who want him to be tough and follow orders, and use the memory of Achilles to make Pyrrhus do things he wouldn't otherwise do. Helenus wants to counteract that and remind Pyrrhus that he can make his own decisions and doesn't have to live up to the memory of his father.
sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Helenus alone isn't enough to completely fix Pyrrhus and he still does terrible things because Odysseus tells him to, or because he thinks that's what would honour his father. this is especially the case with his treatment of Andromache- he isn't even really attracted to her, but he requests her as his slave and treats her poorly because he thinks that's what his father would do, it feels like a continuation of his father's revenge against Hector.
the first time Helenus truly betrays himself to guide Pyrrhus is the sacrifice of Polyxena. Helenus knows he can't persuade Pyrrhus not to do it, and so he puts the practical above the emotional and advises Pyrrhus on how to perform the sacrifice and quickly and painlessly as possible.
this sort of thinking leaves him well and truly stuck, because Pyrrhus grows attached to him and sees him as a self sacrificing advisor. he's clearly desperate for a father figure, someone to make the hard decisions for him, and he puts Helenus into that role. on the one hand, Helenus can exploit that position to soften Pyrrhus' worst impulses and improve his own standing, in a way he even has power over Pyrrhus as the adult in the relationship. but on the other hand, he is still a slave and can't push too far, or he could lose it all. i think there are times when Pyrrhus hurts Helenus or the people he cares about, especially when his masculinity feels threatened, just to remind everyone that he can.
i think the thing Helenus pushes for the most is for Pyrrhus to treat Andromache better, but his methods aren't always great. in my wip, the worst thing Helenus ever does is tell Pyrrhus that Andromache should have his children, even after Andromache asks him not to. he's being threatened into it by Apollo, who is setting up future generations such as Alexander the Great, but it still betrays Andromache. however... it works. Pyrrhus is kinder to her once she has his children, and she gets some level of protection as the mother of his heirs. but Helenus is consumed with guilt over it.
everything about Pyrrhus going to Delphi is so wonderfully tragic. in my original plan, Helenus sends Pyrrhus knowing he will die but that it is fated to happen, but i ended up changing that. now, in my telling, Helenus accompanies Pyrrhus with no idea what will happen, and waits outside while Pyrrhus goes into the temple. when Pyrrhus is attacked by Orestes he rushes in and lets Orestes get away in order to get to Pyrrhus, but he's already mortally wounded and dies in Helenus' arms.
Helenus is devastated because a part of him has really grown to care about Pyrrhus and see him like a son, but as the days pass he begins to feel a measure of relief too, because now he and Andromache are truly free. even Deidamia, his actual mother, is both grief stricken and relieved at the same time, and that combination makes them both feel guilty. Andromache only feels relief, she never grew to care about him.
The part that got me was Andromache mourning Hector and saying what hurts her the most is that he didn't die next to her and she didn't get to hear him say some last words to her which she would remember day and night. Someone really dear to me passed last year so reading this passage this year hit me really really hard, I got chills even. It hit me in a way it hadn't really before. I could always empathize with her and everyone has lost somebody before which is why the themes of the Iliad are so universal and why the text is as relevant as ever after thousands of years, but this time it actually demolished me
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I can never sympathize with Andromache’s fate as a slave considering she, as a princess/royal, was a slave owner lmao.
Why the FUCK should I care about the fate she suffered when many slaves who suffered before and because of her.
Do not get me started on sources that inform us that she nurses Hector’s bastard child with another woman (who was most likely a concubine/sex slave)
“Dearest Hektor, I tried for your sake, With your love affairs if Kupris made you stumble, And often then I offered my breast to your bastards So that I might demonstrate no bitterness for you. And by doing these things I attracted my husband To my virtue…” - Euripides Andromache, 222-227
“For they claim that this is against the history—for there is no history of sons born to Hektor from another woman. But those who say these things have not done their research. For Anaksikratês says in the second book of his Argive Affairs that those with Aineias and Skamandrios, Hektor’s son and an older son […] that first was his bastard who was taken away…[and the legitimate son] was killed. But these men were saved. For Skamandrios arrived in Ida and Aineias—along with his son Askanios—and Ankhises his father, and his other sons and, and Aigestas who was Ankhises’ servant moved to Dardanos. Therefore Euripides does not oddly claim that [Hektor] had illegitimate sons.”
- Scholia in Eur. Andromache 224 [=BNJ 307 F1]
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This is such a good argument, thank you for stating sources too. Agreeing or not I can’t deny there’s a good point behind this.
I understand you would like questions about your fanfics and mythology in general to be sent specifically to this blog :)
Alright, I've noted that down
The question I would like to ask is: have you ever considered or thought about Transfem Helenus?
I like your portrayal and description of him as a transgender man, but honestly, when a character is presented as transgender, I lose a bit of control and I imagine both FTM and MTF, as well as non-binary and a dozen other interesting ways to explore gender identity through a character
I would be interested to hear what you think about this, perhaps you might have or already have had some thoughts of your own about MTF Helenus
I already have my own, I imagine that she has three names Scamandra (because she is Cassandra's twin sister and does not like this name), as well as Helen and Astyanassa - one of my ideas is that she was close to Hector and his family, her nephew was named after her
@freezer-bride-your-sweet-divine Sorry, my Tumblr decided it was offended by me and I can't send an ask from my blog, so I have to use anon
hi!! i admit i actually haven't thought about transfem Helenus, though i have about nonbinary Helenus. in my first draft, Helenus was nonbinary, it was only as i started restructuring the story that i settled on him being a trans man, but in no version of the story is he cis. i also think that for all he is a trans man, he is comfortable with some femininity- he wears his hair long and lots of jewellery, for example.
transfem Helenus is certainly interesting to consider though!
i like to use the Scamandrius/Scamandria-Helenus/Helen name switch as part of their transition, so with transfem Helenus i would see her going by Helen, with her deadname being Scamandrius. that might get confusing when THE Helen shows up, though. maybe she would go by Helena, to distinguish them? if anyone can see the future and see how their chosen name might cause issues down the line, it would be a prophet, after all.
i'd love to hear all your thoughts on transfem Helenus!
and if you don't mind a couple more trans headcanons:
Astyanassa is an interesting choice of name because also in my first draft, i was actually toying with the idea of Astyanax being a trans woman. in my storyline they survive and are raised by Oenone and Cassandra (i hate stories where they're raised by Greeks such as Odysseus, they should be with family!!)
i eventually dropped the idea because the story was getting too bloated and i trimmed their part down so much, and am honestly still unsure if i'm going to keep them or revert back to myth canon and have them die as a baby. as i went along, i never settled on a name, but Astyanassa was among my considerations!
i still have the parts i had written, which include Astyanax visiting Phthia and meeting Briseis and her children (i headcanon that she has twins with Achilles after he dies, a boy named Patroclus and a daughter named Hippodamia, and settles in Phthia to care for Peleus in his old age. possibly she marries Achilles' nephew Menesthius but i write her as aromantic so it's mutually a marriage of convenience), including a sparring match with Patroclus and a scene packed with lesbian tension where Hippodamia does her makeup and they sneak out to a party together. perhaps i should post it?
personally, a trans headcanon i never see explored but hold dear is t4t Hector and Andromache.
Hector is the oldest child, and when he comes out he is accepted and loved, but there's some concern over whether he should come before Deiphobus or not in the succession, and Deiphobus jumps in to say absolutely, he does NOT want to rule but Hector was clearly born for it (i hate people who characterise Deiphobus as bitter about being the second son/spare. he would rather hang out with his boyfriend and take orders than have all that responsibility and when Hector dies and that burden is put on his shoulders, it destroys him.)
and Andromache who is the youngest of 8 and never quite fits in with her brothers, her mother's shadow, who comes out and now has 7 big brothers ready to defend her. she and Hector finding each other feels like fate (which makes it all the more devastating when she loses him.) Ovid's insistence that Andromache was extremely tall also fits in here, i can see it giving her dysphoria but Hector loves his tall wife and that helps.
they take so long to have a child because Hector doesn't want it to interfere with his role in the war, and when it does happen they keep the pregnancy hush-hush for as long as he can so he can continue fighting. when he finally does have to take a break, he's still drilling the men every morning and attending strategy meetings. as soon as he's healed from the birth he goes back out to battle.
Pyrrhus is definitely surprised when he finds out his war prize is trans, but honestly it's all the same to him. when you grow up on stories of your dad disguising himself as a woman, you're pretty open minded. in this AU, Molossus and their other children either don't exist or come from another source, though.
