#ahfod

Saw a meme on Reddit, tried to fill it out for the Targkids. Honestly, Aegon could fit in every single square except "the normal one."

Also, Aegon and Baela really need to sit down and become actual friends, they're missing out.

as a fellow fic writer I get fascinated by how much information goes into your work, from marriage contracts to ladies-in-waiting to meals.

I've been sitting on this Ask for a while (since September) because I've been debating with myself the best way to go about this.

I read a lot of nonfiction history. My home library has multiple shelves dedicated to nonfiction history. There are entire sections for Greek history, Roman history, Greco-Roman mythology, Greco-Roman classical literature, English history (with subsections for Medieval England, Tudor England, and Victorian England), assorted material history (like the history of salt, paper, milk, tea, clothes), and then other random historical eras/subjects.

My nonfiction history books are mostly pop history rather than academic, although I do have some academic history books. With the pop history books, I tend to read them like I would a fiction book—beginning to end, sometimes skimming over parts that I find less interesting. With the academic books, I'll usually look up a specific topic in the index then read about that.

I have not been in the habit of taking notes while I read these books. My general philosophy is that I'll remember whatever I remember, and usually this works out fine for fanfic purposes. Basically, I try to read so much nonfiction history that when I sit down to write my fanfic, a lot of the times I'm able to remember enough about the subject that I can start writing about it, and/or I can research online for additional details. It's fanfic, not a thesis, so I'm not too fussed about 100% accuracy or citations.

That said, I have had a thought in the back of my mind for a while that it might be fun/helpful to do some kind of "Medieval/Tudor history for fanfiction writers" series. Of course, this would be a very time- and labor-intensive endeavor, which would take away from my time to write my own fics. I also have no idea how I would structure such a thing. Tumblr posts? AO3 works? What topics would I focus on? What citations, if any, would I include?

A much easier (for me) alternative would be to just write a list of the various history books I've read, and I could leave it up to people to decide whether they want to read anything on the list. But a lot of my nonfiction history books are pretty niche, so accessibility might be an issue if they aren't available in libraries.

Also…to be honest, I've read so many history books that some of them blur together. I definitely liked some better than others, and I've found straight-up inaccuracies in a few books. So part of me hesitates to just blanket-recommend the books on my bookshelf, because I cannot confidently say whether all of them are of high quality/historical accuracy.

I have some online articles bookmarked. Those would probably be the easiest thing to share. But my bookmarks are very unorganized and un-annotated, so it wouldn't be a pretty list.

I will probably continue to mull over the best way to go about this. In the meantime, it would be easier and quicker for me to answer specific questions people might have. I'm not a professional historian by any means, but I enjoy doing research and helping other people do research (and hopefully teach them how to do their own research in the long-run, because this is an increasingly vital skill that everyone should have in this current era of rampant misinformation).

So if people have specific historical questions—maybe about my fics, maybe about the ASOIAF world in general—I'd be happy to see what I can dig up.

Now, finally going back to Anon's actual question:

I enjoyed The Private Lives of the Tudors by Tracy Borman, although it's been a long time since I read it. I more recently read The Waiting Game by Nicola Clark, which I loved because it focuses on the lives of royal ladies-in-waiting. These are both Tudor books rather than Medieval, but TBH, history doesn't fall into neat boxes, and the world of ASOIAF borrows from multiple points in history anyway.

I hope your holiday today is filled with good food and family!

How would your characters spend a Thanksgiving day and meal?

We have family friends visiting who are determined to deep-fry a turkey, so…we'll see how that goes.

If this is set in something like the Love Actually-verse, then I would say:

Aegon is allowed two glasses of wine by Jace, as usual at family events. He and Aemond alternate between insulting each other and shit-talking their relatives.

Aemond eats primarily turkey (white meat) and veggies, because his diet never takes a vacation.

Jace is trying to stop people from throwing Elenar around like a football. Elenar is enjoying it.

Luce and Rhaena have spreadsheets plotting out the best Black Friday sales.

Baela is watching sports on TV. She's one of the people throwing Elenar around like a football.

Daeron is also watching sports on TV, but he is not one of the people throwing Elenar around like a football.

Joff is being antisocial on her phone in the corner.

Aegon: Sokka, the goofball with unexpectedly nuanced depths who sometimes has brilliant and/or insanely stupid ideas. (Aegon would 100% drink the mysterious cactus juice.)

Jace: Yue, the noble and brave princess with a strong sense of duty (but hopefully Jace doesn't have to sacrifice herself and turn into the moon).

Aemond: Zuko, and not only because they are both broody boys who have messed-up left eyes. They are both obsessed with honor but struggle with what exactly "honor" is. And they get awkward around girls. Speaking of which, my favorite ship growing up was Zutara, and…

Luce: Katara! Yes, there is water imagery. And yes, my Zutara heart is very biased. IN ADDITION, Luce and Katara are nurturers at their core while also having their own ambitions. And they're prodigies at a specific thing (finance/econ and waterbending), but their full potential doesn't come out until they're in the right environment.

Daeron: Aang. Precious baby with way too much weight on his shoulders. They try to light up the room and make people happy. They rarely get angry, but when they do, it's very scary.

Joff: Toph. Underestimated young girls who are crazy powerful. Would kill a grown man without hesitation. They seem like Not Like Other Girls but they secretly think it's nice to have genuine female friendships. Really good at bullshitting their way out of trouble. They act tough but their emotions go very deep.

There's also room to argue that Joff could be equivalent to Mai or even Azula for specific traits, but holistically, I think Toph is the best match.

And Helaena is obviously Aunt Wu. (jkjk—unless?)

I will make a family tree, but I probably won't share it in its entirety until the entire fic is eventually done (or the details will get revealed during the course of the story). I can see myself revising a few things here and there as I write, so I don't want to unnecessarily lock myself into smaller details that I might have to change later.

I can share some general ideas of the family tree, though. The Dragonstone Targs are a bit easier. They go for incestuous marriages whenever possible, branching out to the Velaryons when necessary. Rhaenys doesn't have Baratheon blood in this AU (although the ruling family of Storm's End at this time is probably still the Durrandons), so that's why Luce (and Jace and Joff) have Valyrian silver hair instead of black like in the other fics. No comment on the Rhaenyra/Laenor and Daemon/Laena arrangements (yet).

Mainland Targs will require me to be more thoughtful, because they marry out a lot more often. The closest they do is first-cousin marriages, which is pretty common among Westerosi nobility. I imagine Aemond's grandparents were Targaryen cousins, which is why he says his grandmother was Vhagar's last rider.

But they try not to keep it too in the family, and marrying other houses is good for alliances. I personally like the symmetry of the first outside-marriage (Maegor to Ceryse) and the most recent outside-marriage (Viserys to Alicent) both being to Hightowers. However, I haven't completely figured out all the other marriages in the interim. There might be a Qoherys in there, since the Qoheryses would likely still be extant without the Conquest.

I'll need to reread F&B so I can take notes on where the Alternate History diverges. The roads are going to be a lot shittier in this AU without Jaehaerys's big infrastructure project lol.

[part 2] is able to continue marrying only those of clear Valyrian descent. Possibly Joff and Daeron also agree that any children of theirs will not receive cradle eggs + any that claim dragons later in life will have to marry either each other or a Targaryen/Velaryon cousin, to set the precedent that Targs that marry out don't have dragons and their children won't either (bc you don't want dragons ending up out of royal control).

[End of Ask]

🤔

This is a very interesting and good thought. I'm going to ramble a bit while I parse through the various points.

In theory, cadet branches seem like a great way to take care of younger sons. Give them some money and men of their own, and let them start a family in a smaller castle. Down the line, if the main line needs help, the cadet branch should be a natural ally. Right?

Unfortunately, in the ASOIAF universe, cadet branches can be very hit-or-miss. There is a risk that a cadet branch may eventually try to rebel against or overthrow the main line, especially as time passes and the original familial bond weakens. Let's look at some examples.

Arguably, the most famous example of a cadet branch is House Blackfyre, and we all know that ended disastrously with the various Blackfyre Rebellions. Of course, this was complicated by Aegon IV being a very shitty person who decided to spite his heir on his deathbed, so maybe we can consider this as an outlier example of a cadet branch gone wrong. Also, the Blackfyre Rebellions take place after the Dance, so they wouldn't be held up as a historical example for Joffron.

But we do have historical/contemporary examples during Joffron's time of cadet branches that turned against the main line. The Greystarks were an ancient cadet branch of the Starks who allied with the Boltons in a rebellion against the Starks; the Starks destroyed the Greystarks and turned them extinct.

The Gulltown Arryns are a cadet branch of the Eyrie Arryns. If I recall correctly (the ASOIAF Wiki is currently down because of Cloudflare issues, so I can't check), Jeyne Arryn faces challenges from her Gulltown Arryn cousins, who think that a male Arryn should be the head of House Arryn, not her. In another universe where the Dance happened differently, Jeyne could very well have been overthrown and replaced by a Gulltown Arryn.

On the other hand, there are lots of examples of cadet branches that are perfectly fine and don't rebel or chafe against the main line. The Lannisport Lannisters get along very well with the Casterly Rock Lannisters—but Casterly Rock is in Lannisport's backyard. So the cadet branch has physical proximity to the main line, which in turn probably helps maintain blood proximity, because the Lannisters can just marry their cousins down the road. (Was Joanna Lannister a Lannisport Lannister? I can't remember.) Similarly, the Daynes of High Hermitage are pretty close in location to the Daynes of Starfall.

Overall, there are many more examples of cadet branches that are fine than cadet branches that rebel. But it's always the BAD examples that stick out the most, and with the Targaryens, they have dragons to consider as well.

You suggested a limitation on cradle eggs/claiming dragons for Joffron's descendants. In theory, this could work. In practice, this requires a lot of trust that future generations will continue following the agreement (all it takes is one bad actor in the cadet branch and/or a weak head of the main line).

They would also be depending on dragons…not being dragons. We tend to speak in terms of "the rider claiming the dragon," but it goes the other way too (especially in the show, with Seasmoke and Addam's example). The dragons on Dragonstone and Driftmark are more free-range, and they don't seem to discriminate between a Targ of the main line versus a cadet branch, as long as they have Targ blood. There's also a common fandom theory that Seasmoke hatched from Meleys's egg, and that's how Laenor got Seasmoke. If a cadet branch Targ has a dragon who lays an egg, it might not be possible for the main line to interfere in time to stop that egg's hatchling from bonding with another cadet branch Targ.

So it would be safest for a cadet branch to never have any dragons/eggs at all. TBH, Joff might not like that tradeoff; she values dragons more than lands/castles/titles. But Joff might not even want to have kids, so maybe it's a moot point.

Circling back to Otto: he is probably too risk-averse to agree to this sort of plan, which requires a lot of "what ifs" and dependencies on people who haven't even been born yet. Other Targs/Velaryons might be in favor of the plan though, even with all its risks.

IMO, the safest form of dragon distribution would either be a) keeping them all in the main line only, or b) having a system like the Valyrian Freehold, where there were enough dragonriding families that they all kept each other in check. Both these options have their drawbacks, though. With Option A, if you get a despot in charge of the main line, you really don't want them being the only person with a dragon (imagine Aegon IV with a dragon).

With Option B—well, having dragons comes at a huge cost. The dragons need to eat and have room to nest. If there are a ton of dragons around Westeros, the land and people are going to take a huge hit real soon. (Think about the little girl who got burned and eaten by Dany's dragons in the show.) I don't remember if this is canon or not, but I have a theory that part of the reason the Valyrians were so imperialistic was that they NEEDED more territory to maintain their high population of dragons. (You know, in addition to the usual imperialistic reasons of greed, hubris, and wanting cheap slave labor.)

Even though the dragons are a very cool aspect of the ASOIAF universe, a dragon-powered monarchy/form of government is really difficult to sustain long-term.