Okay, I'm gonna ask you to pease read the post again because you are talking right past my point. And then I'm gonna say right away that it's very obvious that we are not gonna agree on this. We have very different perspectives in this from pretty much every angle especially the "Marinette is more respectful of boundaries" one, that one is actually laughable to me. But there is too much going on in your reply I don't agree with that I don't want to answer it all and make a fight out of this.
I never said Chat Noir is supposed to reject her now out of spite because I never even talked about Adriens reaction to her changing her mind. I also never said Adrien is a saint and did nothing wrong, you twisted my words into something I never said.
But it IS interesting to me how YOU make Marinette out to be a blameless little Saint who never did anything wrong regarding Chat Noir and the love aspect between them. You did something I didn't do and then accused ME of it. Interesting.
What I said is that Marinette rejected Chat Noir for 4 seasons with the final one in "Glaciator 2" being pretty clear on the matter that the no is a no. You cannot tell me that you don't understand what I mean when I say that the person doing the rejecting several times and so directly and over a long period of time also has to take accountability for their very own words. That's how interpersonal relationships work and that's how reality in general works.
If you tell a person 15 times (exaggerated number, calm down) that no you don't wanna meet them in your free time and you just wanna be collegues, you DO have to accept and respect that you said "no" 15 times. It doesn't matter what the other person did, I'm talking about YOU and YOUR accountability in your actions and words. Yes, you have the right to change your mind later and have it be YOU who asks the 16th time, but you cannot stand there and pretend like the other 15 no's didn't happen or just don't count out of the sudden because that's mean towards you. Yes you have the right to change your mind but you aren't owed anything either.
And you cannot just approach the situation with the mindset of "Oh, I have the right to change my mind isn't that nice :D I see no reason why I should be careful of the other persons feelings when I suddenly propose meeting in private to be friends, something I previously made very clear 15 times I have no interest in and wanted them to stop asking for! I dont have to take anything I previously said into concideration or adjust my behavior because in this situation MY feelings and MY wants are all that matters :D"
Your answer isn't just a mere placeholder without meaning so you can change your mind however you please. Marinettes feelings aren't the only thing that get to matter in this, you are aware of that right?
And it doesn't matter how hard the show has broken every single one of its own backbones til now and will likely continue to do so to make everything cater to Marinette and her feelings, the default situation we are working with right now of Ladybug having turned down Chat Noir for 4 seasons and in a very direct and final way in "Glaciator 2" just for her NOW in season 5 starting to develop feelings for him, is not going to suddenly change into one where only one her feelings matter because that's not how a healthy interpersonal Relationship works.
Her changing her mind is only ONE half of the two-people relationship.
And if Ladybug were to confess to Chat Noir he wouldn't be obligated to start dating her either, because HIS feelings after the rejection having gone through his skull are allowed to change too. The person who did the prior rejecting doesn't hold the sole privilege of being allowed to change their mind.
And if that were the case in Canon? That if Ladybug were to confess her feelings openly and without concidering her prior rejections of him and Chat Noir says no, because it took him so much to get over her in the first place and he has moved on for good? What then?
Are we gonna throw a hissfit because its "mean" towards Marinette that the person she has rejected for 4 seasons isn't just happily agreeing because he finally got permission to love her? Is he obligated to date her now just because that's what he wanted before, when now after she told him it's not gonna happen he doesn't view the situation as the same anymore?
No of course not. And yes, this still included Marinette having the right to change her mind, its almost like I never put that in question.
The point of what I said was that this show has a massive problem with catering everything that happenes to Marinette, her feelings so SHE benefits of it. And that this has already send some pretty bad feminist messages, especially in season 4, that people straight up gave up on the show for. It doesn't matter if you don't like that, this is the case and people are pretty damn vocal about their issues with the feminism of the show and the way only Marinette gets to matter. Not every criticism is sexism.
When I say that I hope that season 5 will remember that Ladybug turned down Chat Noir for 4 seasons then I mean that I hope is that this show will teach little girls the important lesson that yes, they can reject boys they don't like, but a rejection isn't some mere powermove they can use to stand their ground, a rejection is a damn interpersonal statement (especially the way it was hammered in here in Miraculous for 4 seasons) with MEANING.
That they are empowered to say "no" but that this also means the other person has the right to change their mind as well. I want little girls to finally get teached the important but not so nice sides of their empowerment because power comes with responsibility.
A rejection is a rejection. Not some powermove to use mindlessly but a statement that will absolutely come with social/interpersonal consequences. And changing your mind on a rejection is not the one sided right its made out to be. And therefore ESPECIALLY a main character like Marinette, who has done a fuck ton of rejecting of so many kinds in this show and yet hardly ever respected being told "no", inconvenient rules or other people's boundaries (ESPECIALLY Chat Noirs, are you kidding me?) should be portrayed to go about the Ladynoir situation alot more careful and concidered than the reply I just got.
I don't care how hard the show has made everything else but Marinette and her feelings insignificant and will likely continue to make everything cater to her in future, my initial post was about that I hope that the show will remember in this regard that something else than Marinette and her convenience should get to matter again in the issue ahead of us.
And that people don't like it that I bring up these moral issues regarding how our female main character is depicted handling important situations is something I 1) am very much aware of and 2) am NOT getting less motivated to do cause every time I hold the narrative around the main character of this internationally extremely popular family cartoon that praises itself for its feminism, to normal moral standards I get replies of people who not only competely miss the point of what I was saying, I get replies of people telling me why said main character the entire show caters it's messages to has done nothing wrong EVER and/ or shouldn't be held to the regular moral standards and that their mistakes can not be criticized, talked about or held accountable for because the main character is justified⢠and its everyones else's job to just understand HER and not be angry, instead of finding/ talking about a fair way for every character involved to handle this now.
When I make posts like these since the disaster of season 4, I do it because I'm bringing up moral issues I find badly handled or in danger of being badly handled regarding this extremely popular feminist cartoon and its female feminist icon main character, because this show is extremely biased in who their messaged actually benefit from and in a show like this with so much grey area targeted at young children, I refuse to not be vocal about my criticism and concerns. This show is influencing ALOT of people, especially children and it already shows.
And since this show makes everything about Marinette and is biased towards her in the name of "feminism" and "female empowerment" my primary criticisms are about her. Since frankly, hardly anything else gets to matter or isn't made into her favor over time.
I am NEVER hating on Marinette herself as a character who is a very flawed person but tries her best, I'm criticizing the narrative around her in how she is utilized as such a flawed person. Especially when then the narrative make things cater entirely to her when some plot lines weren't even about her in the first place, because THAT'S were the really questionable messages are getting send out to the viewers.
Im pointing out and criticizing the moral messages I find dangerous or even harmful of a highly popular and influential family cartoon because this shows narrative messages are made of two main topics: female empowerment and the grey area of conflicts.
And while this combination isn't automatically dangerous (of course not) this show unfortunately CANNOT always properly handle its messages and presents some serious double standards. And therefore, since the show itself takes care of Marinette so the viewer understands her and she gets a happy ending that is fair to her and treats her well and respectful, I AM HERE to point out some narrative moral issues im concerned regarding the world AROUND her.
Because the main character isn't the only thing that matters in a healthy message and also the hardest part of story to get right for the viewers at home and more balanced pieces of family media know that. Marinette is not the target of so much criticism just because of narrative issues or sexism, it's also simply because of her being the main character.
Main characters, especially in family media are normally more of a "audience self insert" type, that's friendly, unproblematic and most of the time has a pretty save and vanilla personality. Marinette isn't and on the one hand that's a definite plus, but on the other hand season 4 in particular showed just how badly making everything about your main character can hurt them in the viewers eyes. Seperate normal character criticism from criticism that either directly or indirectly is about the main character narrative favorism. So much of season 4s fan criticism towards Marinette came in their roots down to main character syndrome and that's what I'm doing too.