The Wonderful World of Fictional Fixation

It is not just that romance is an integral part of the show (btw fiction needs more main male characters who openly and genuinely like the idea to be married and wants to have kids and be involved with raising them). But the opposition between Adrien and Gabriel comes front the fact that, while they share the common experience of losing someone dear to them, their solution to their hapiness are opposite.

Adrien accepts the past, moves on and look forward. He goes to school, wants to make new friends, finds another hapiness. He is still lost because of how new a lot of thing is to him, but at least he tries. And most of the time, the biggest obstacle to his happiness, to what he wants, is his own father.

Like, Marinette tends to be used as a power fantasy type character, like Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, and Izuku Midoriya are, one who’s just a normal person at the start, and one who’s grown up without a lot of power, and then suddenly become one of the strongest around.

Chloe and Lila are both presented as actively antagonistic toward Marinette, with Chloe being the most blatant and Lila catching up fast. They are actively working toward her downfall at this point, their resentment very obvious and very relatable for the female target audience who has experienced bullying.

Gabriel- on the other hand- is rarely plainly antagonistic toward Adrien himself. He’s written with, surprisingly, more nuance than the two teenaged bullies. Gabriel, even with Chat Blanc and Ephemeral- has enough moments in the show where he seems to care about Adrien and I believe that offsets a lot of the revenge narratives for Adrien. Especially considering Adrien himself wants a better relationship with his father. He doesn’t know about Hawkmoth and he doesn’t have to deal with active, malicious cruelty coming from him father’s direction.

The fandom is not afraid to lean into Adrien’s darker, edgier, angrier side as demonstrated by so many enemy aus and other non-salt dark Chat Noir fics.

But I think the reason he doesn’t lend to salt well is Gabriel’s nuance. If Gabriel was more plainly cruel to Adrien, yelling at him, making it clear that he is nothing to him and treating him like dirt, I think we might see a lot more ‘Chat Noir destroys Gabriel Agreste’ fics.

I just really, really hate how much the concepts of those things are taken as normal, as a given, that it’s just considered totally normal and justified to make everyone beat up on Marinette so she can tear them to shreds later, especially making Alya horrible so she can be made to suffer for her crimes and be replaced.

I personally see the salt-fic/bashing phenomenon as a sort of power fantasy on the fic author’s part.  Fans don’t have any sort of control over the canon narrative, but they can claim a form of control by creating fan works.  Not all fan works are rooted in the ‘I must correct canon to be what I want’ drive, but it is a very powerful motivator for creating fic.  I’d even argue that most fluff fics are also created with this corrective drive (i.e., ‘canon won’t let these characters be stress-free and happy, therefore I’m going to create an environment where there’s nothing to worry about’), but the target emotional catharsis for fluff (warm fuzzies) is very different than what salters want from their fic (vindication).

Whenever a fic writer is motivated by the corrective drive, they need to cut down any and all obstacles in their path.  For fluff fic writers, this means taking any stressors and shoving them out of sight, where the author/reader doesn’t have to deal with it.  Salt fic writers, however, will instead bring all their stressors to the forefront, where they can punish a proxy for the canon character(s) that caused them frustration.  But because salt fic has to be explicit about the parts of canon the author didn’t like, it usually ends up magnifying/oversimplifying the issues they have to the point that it can’t fit with canon anymore (this becomes especially pronounced if the salter forms an opinion while canon was still in the process of being created, and thus they had no knowledge of future events that would alleviate their frustrations, if not render them moot).

For the parts of the fandom that are seeking stories congruent with their understanding of canon, coming across salt fic is like discovering a twisted perversion of someone they love, and thus will be deeply unpleasant to experience.  For the salters, though, reading a salt fic is akin to the triumph of unmasking the villain that has been causing them problems the whole time and putting them where they really belong, since no one else (especially not canon) will.  But no matter what they do, canon will continue to exist and do its own thing, so the only thing that salters can do to continue feeling vindicated is to continue to punch down at their perceived enemy at any chance they get.

But the thing about fighting a perceived threat is it’s an exhausting, unwinnable fight–sooner or later, the salt will taste stale.  Not everyone will abandon the urge to bash, of course (not to mention that a big enough salt-storm can do irreparable damage to a fandom), but I do think any particular issue that salters choose to bash will only have so long of a shelf life before it becomes no longer worth beating.

For the salters, though, reading a salt fic is akin to the triumph of unmasking the villain that has been causing them problems the whole time and putting them where they really belong, since no one else (especially not canon) will.

I agree that this is where a lot of the urge comes from. But it kinda makes things worse, when you actually look at saltfics. 

This philosophy isn’t so bad when it’s going after a character for genuine major problems they’ve caused, even if they’ve tried to make up for it since then. It’s why I don’t bat an eye at say, fics going after Bakugo or Azula or Catra. Sure, sometimes it can go too far, but they’ve genuinely done some pretty terrible stuff at least, it makes sense why people would have frustrations and even outright anger at them, and the fics aren’t usually completely twisted out of character, even if they’re not in-character, either. 

For Miraculous, the closest thing you have to those circumstances is probably Chloe, but she actually doesn’t get much salt in saltfics. I think most people figure that canon does enough of that. There’s just not much point.

Then for Miraculous, there’s the “good guys that have some flaws that can cause issues, but overall are good people” characters. Adrien salt and Marinette salt generally goes here, since they’re multifaceted characters, and can and have done bad things that they shouldn’t have. Saltfics bashing on Adrien usually take canonical flaws and then just so wildly exaggerate his flaws that yes, it becomes a gross perversion of his character, but they are at least usually flaws that exist in some form. I don’t want anything to do with it, but at least it’s based off something.

But if you look at, say, Alya salt, which is the single most common type of salt in saltfics towards a canonical non-antagonist, the whole “unmasking the real villain and putting them in their place” thing just becomes horrible. Because usually, it ISN’T based on stuff that happened in canon at all, on her actual flaws.

The Alya “unmasking”, so to speak, is making her destroy Marinette’s stuff, have her gather people to say horrible things to her, manipulate and abuse her into being her servant, and even physically try to harm her - all stuff with no actual canon basis, even as a starting point. “Exposing” Alya for that is more just inventing stuff wholesale - except that it’s not really, most of it is just pulled from racist stereotypes instead of canon. And the whole “putting Alya where the saltfic author thinks she really belongs” is really blatant, what with Chloe usually taking Alya’s role, while Alya is relegated to Chloe’s old role as bully and antagonist - except worse, because Alya is treated as deserving of being maliciously and cruelly punished, to extents that don’t happen to Chloe in canon, and extremely rarely in fics.

I guess it’s better that they get that ugliness out through fanfic than in real life, but it did sour my fandom experience and make me regret entering the ML fandom sometimes. I think I enjoyed it more when I wasn’t interacting with fans of it. I didn’t know about the “salt” or all these radical takes on why Adrien is an entitled selfish brat who would blackmail Ladybug in the middle of battle to win her affections of a passive loser who isn’t strong enough for her. Or why Marinette is serial stalker who is going to assault Adrien in his sleep or an unforgiving machete of “justice” who will do terrible things in the name of righteous anger with little compassion.

And the worst thing about these takes is, in the few stories I’ve read, these two kids who canonically love each other so much, come to hate each other. I know they have flaws and communication issues, but I thought the “fix” was to have them speak to one another and resolve them? Not to throw one of them away entirely and exaggerate the worst parts of them so that they become repulsive to the other? I don’t think I have enough anger in me at either of them to write that and it scares me a bit when people do.

The thing is: he already carelessly depicted 2 sentibeings (Sentibug & Sentigabriel) be snapped out of existence but in one of the sentibeings (SB) it was depicted as terrified of being snapped out of existence, but l the other was depicted as casual about being created & destroyed. After the mentioned episodes, there is no mourning period over them that lasts more than a single scene, if at all.

I think sentis are essentially blank slates/whatever information/emotion was imprinted on them at creation.

Sentigabe is very puppet like and Hawkmoth controls him like a puppet the entire time. He is never introduced to the idea that he can be free. When he dies, no one knows and therefore no one mourns. He was never given the chance to truly be a person.

Sentibug was created by Mayura with slightly more character. She was made to be a mimic of Ladybug in both appearance and skill. The actual Ladybug introduces Sentibug to the idea that she can act with agency. For a short moment, she was given freewill and the concept of it. So when she dies, she is more aware of what that means and she is mourned/the characters are remorseful because- just for a moment- Ladybug and Chat Noir accepted her as part of their team and she was allowed to be human.

Adrien was created as an infant (at least according to Wishmaker) and is therefore the most human adjacent of them all. He was also likely not imprinted with anything like language or skill- though his parents may have given him certain qualities and predilections (like genetics specialists and IVF tech do with designer babies). He was raised for years by his parents, developed wants and needs, habits and personality and effectively established a trajectory separate from his parents’ desires (I.e enrolling himself in school or establishing his Chat Noir persona). Adrien has made connections in and outside of his home and is dear to several people. He has been alive and developing for almost 15 years. Because of these differences, he would be mourned significantly.

The difference between Adrien and the sentis seen thus far is that one was created with the intention of humanity and the other was created with the intention of being a tool. And one has been given a chance to develop and the others were killed in infancy.

Imagine a pregnant mother with no known relatives passed away and the child is incubated and then also passes away a day later after being removed. It’s sad but the child wouldn’t be mourned much compared to a 14 year old who passes in a car accident. The medical workers would feel bad because they witnessed it. It might even haunt some of the less desensitized in the ICU. But without that child being given the chance to develop and grow into a person, the world will go on without much mourning. Same with the sentibeings who are created and snapped away hours later.

ML is here giving us the gentlest of boy, who loves people, who is genuinely kind to everyone, and it's such a nice change compared to some media where the male love interest is this distant and cold guy who will only be kind to his love interest, and even then it's only after a lot of convincing and it's on very rare occasions because uwu how bad would it be to actually show feelings as a guy am I right

and people see Adrien being the exact opposite of that kind of representation and go "hmmm too soft I'm still gonna make him be that toxic asshole kind of character while being sexy at it anyway"

I think because of his background (his cold father, his mother passing recently, etc) people want to make him all cold and moody. But as you said, that’s just not who that character is. Not everyone is going to become cold and moody in that situation because people have different temperaments and levels of resilience and Adrien is a prime example of that. 

He rejects the cold, gloomy setting his father has established at home. He seems to prefer using his mother’s memory as way to boost himself and remind himself of his values and her spirit (hence why I think her memory stopped him from destroying the Christmas tree in the special or why he keeps her pictures everywhere). He falters at times and becomes morose, but that’s how he handles his grief. It’s different for everyone. He doesn’t have to automatically become moody asshole guy. That’s his father’s job.

The AUs I’ve seen this done well though... Adrien has usually been through some sort of extended trauma with no help for a long time and people have taken advantage of his kindness time and time again. And that eventually results in his distrust of others and even some cruelty on his part. Or he’s done something that has irreparably soiled his idea of himself (usually by manipulation from Gabriel) and now he feels he must live up to that twisted view of himself because the goodness in him has been compromised. In both situations, I still felt the authors were writing him a little TOO archetypical cold asshole guy at times, but they were the best explanations I’ve seen while being the most in character for that particular type of AU.

Exactly all of this ^ No one said it wasn’t more likely? It’s the fact that it IS likely, but that it happening would be completely unsatisfying. The fact is that Adrien realizing he has romantic feelings for Marinette is actually the least important development that needs to happen in the lovesquare, and not even needed for them to start a post-reveal relationship, contrary to what people in the fandom think. Marinette isn’t the one who has compartmentalized her personality. Adrien has a perfectly easy time putting her two identities together. He has no trouble thinking of her romantically (she’s the one who has verbally denied liking him). He already recognizes and appreciates Marinette for who she is. And through loving and being best friends with Ladybug, he already knows her - all that’s left is for him to realize that she’s always been closer within reach than he thought she was. Marinette is the one who needs to realize that Chat Noir is different from who she thought he was, the one who needs to start to see the resemblance between his two identities to the point that the reveal isn’t as much of a brain-breaking shock as it was in Ephemeral, and the one who needs to overcome her fear and learn to believe in The Power of Love Always So Strong and realize how she feels about her partner

Like people do realize prereveal Adrienette dating means that Ladynoir is just … done with their relationship development right? That all that’s left for them to do is be Partners while they twiddle their thumbs fighting bad guys and waiting for the reveal to shake things up? Do people really think that’s a good and satisfying conclusion to the 7-year-buildup of Ladybug realizing that Chat Noir is a lot more sensitive than she thought over the course of the series, to Ladybug growing more and more fond of his silly antics, to Ladybug blushing when Chat Noir kissed her cheek in Glaciator, to “maybe if Adrien didn’t exist I’d see Chat Noir differently,” to Ladybug getting jealous over Chat Noir paying attention to any other girl, to “maybe if I show Ladybug my true self she’ll fall in love with me,” to Chat Blanc and everything else that followed?

And beyond that, Ladynoir developing platonically (for now) can still help Ladybug come to terms with who Chat is so they’re in a better place once the reveal occurs. Who’s to say that Adrinette dating couldn’t remove some of the pressure Marinette feels regarding her relationship with Chat and help her recognize things in Chat she was forcing herself to ignore for fear of developing feelings? One could argue that might even have happened in the Chat Blanc episode when Adrinette dates, since Marinette seems to take to Adrien being Chat well enough (though I will admit we don’t see the ramifications of that reveal scene and the episode is too rushed at that point for this to be a solid point).

Overall, I just don’t thing Adrinette dating would be an objectively bad thing for the square, but that’s how I’ve seen it spoken about in some circles lately. I can however see why the show might not do a good job of showing how Ladynoir could still develop while Adrinette dates, so in that regard yeah, maybe it would be unsatisfying.

I mean it’s nice that after everything that happened she is falling for him now, but by the nature of the situation her having changed her mind AFTER “Glaciator 2” just “ain’t Chat Noir’s problem anymore” and therefore her developing feelings for him should include that factor as a solid main concern. I’m not saying it isn’t allowed to happen at all anymore and she missed her chance, but the Ladynoir situation isn’t like Adrinettes. Marinette herself has never been rejected by Adrien because she never let him know while in Ladynoir Ladybug made her rejection pretty clearly heard in a final way in season 4. That isn’t going to not have happened for the entire show just because it isn’t to Marinettes liking anymore.

Ladynoir and Adrinette are not the same dynamics or situations.

It’s a really, REALLY bad message for the children watching the show in my opinion to just say “Yeah Ladybug rejects Chat Noir and went through pretty harsh means to get it through his head in the end, but what can we do? She fell in love with him afterwards so isn’t it nice that she is now giving him permission to love her? :)”

No it’s not. She said no and made it clear that he has to respect that no. Getting rejected is not a one-sided action you know? The person DOING THE REJECTION has to adjust their behavior as well, the rejected person isn’t the only one who has to accept the answer “no”.

When you say “no” you have to accept and respect as well that you said “no” because the other person isn’t owed to be accessible for you to play with their emotions just because YOU now change your mind.

Rejection is a serious topic and, again, just because Marinette is a girl doesn’t it mean that she should be narratively allowed to just “take back” her rejections of 4 seasons now when she pleases to. That’s a horrible example for little girls watching, boys aren’t your toys.

I hope this show isn’t going to make me watch another bad #girlpower message on the boys expense just because “feminism is giving women the opportunity to choose!”, because yes, that IS right. And she chose NO.

But feminism doesn’t mean that girls need to be validated in the choice to be disrespectful and while playing with other people’s emotions.

Marinette rejected Chat Noir for 4 seasons and we even had episodes like “Weredad” were she got him in serious trouble and HURT because of her just claiming she is in love with him as if that’s nothing she needs to take seriously.

I’m not going to really expect the show to teach a good lesson to girls here, because this show is only really concerned about everything happening on the girls term and to her benefit while the morality often just gets thrown out of the window.

You repeated similar sentiments in a post you made angrily ranting about the Cheek Kiss in Risk based on a few seconds shown in the trailer, complaining about how Ladybug had no right to kiss him on the cheek – as if cheek kisses aren’t a normal platonic gesture for French people, something I thought we Adrien fans were already well aware of due to how annoying it is when American fans salt on Adrien for doing la bise in scenes like the one in Glaciator, but apparently Adrien stans behave just the same as Adrien salters do these days. I ignored that post because I found it completely ridiculous and I knew it’d be disproven as soon as Risk officially came out, but apparently this sentiment is going to be a repeated thing.

You keep ending these posts with things like “this isn’t Marinette salt stop calling me a salter,” yet it’s clear in these posts that you’re projecting your Own feelings and bias on to the characters rather than drawing from the actual context and nuances of their specific relationship, which is exactly what salters tend to do when they accuse Adrien of things like harassment. If your response to a close and dear friend developing feelings for you despite rejecting you before is “that’s not my problem,” then I fear for your interpersonal relationships, but that’s not how Chat Noir feels towards Ladybug. Friends care about each others’ feelings. Chat Noir and Ladybug care about each others’ feelings. And that is, in fact, the exact opposite of what Chat Noir feels about Ladybug’s past rejection. You claimed with the cheek kiss that Ladybug “doesn’t have any right” to be making romantic gestures after her "rejection”, but fail to recall that the character in question’s response to the “rejection” was “maybe she’ll fall in love with me if I drop the flirting and let her see who I really am.” Your take presents Ladybug’s feelings as a nuisance or even an injustice that Chat Noir is being forced to deal with, not to mention how you talk as if Ladybug is actively making advances on Chat Noir and as if she expects Chat Noir to be immediately ready to date her at the drop of a hat, when nothing remotely close to that has even happened.

In addition to those overlooked details, there’s also the context of the whole relationship. Glaciator 2.0 wasn’t about rejecting Chat Noir, at least not in the “I’m not interested in you like that” way, it was about Ladybug’s annoyance with him going too far (i.e. intentionally letting people/press think they’re a couple) and not knowing the right time and place for the flirting (especially when it becomes a distraction during battle). That’s been a longstanding frustration she’s voiced since even before she knew he had feelings for her - she’s responded time and time again to his mid-battle flirtations with “now is not the time”, and that’s exactly the same thing she said to him when she got angry during the Akuma fight at the start of Glaciator 2.0. When exactly was this moment where “Ladybug rejects Chat Noir and went through pretty harsh means to get it through his head in the end” ?? Ladybug was already upset that a picture of their kiss had been posted all over Paris with false information attached and without her permission, and then got more upset when he encouraged said false information in the middle of a battle. She wanted him to stop pushing the idea that they were a couple. She even started to backtrack when she saw that her anger made him sad, only for him to be the one who resolved to stop. The point of that episode was for Chat Noir to learn to show his love for Ladybug in a different way that respects her wishes and to also learn to drop the “casanova” act and be more genuine with her – all for the purpose of progressing the love story and having Ladybug really start to see the real him and develop feelings for him.

It is not “disrespectful” or “playing with other people’s emotions” to have a change of heart and develop feelings for someone after getting to know them and growing closer and going through new experiences with them, dear god. That’s literally how relationships naturally develop. And the fact that you’re framing the very act of Ladybug rejecting Chat Noir as the show attempting a “harsh feminist #girlpower moment” says a lot  more about you than it does about the show. Marinette salters and people like you take completely normal life situations depicted in the show and make them about “#girlpower” more often than the show ever does. It was a rejection. Plain and simple. Not a “#GirlPower” moment. It was about developing their relationship. This whole “person A rejects person B only to have a change of heart after getting to know who they really are” is a timeless love story trope. Do people not even read Pride and Prejudice anymore?? I don’t recall people writing several paragraphs complaining that Elizabeth didn’t face “”””consequences”””” for her “#girlpower moment” of telling Darcy she’d never marry him only to “””play with his feelings””” when she had a change of heart.

It just so happens that the show DID send the message to girls to not play with people’s feelings using the very same rejections you mentioned. It told them to be honest and upfront and not lead a guy on as a backup option when they actually want someone else. It showed Ladybug immediately telling Chat Noir the truth when she found out about his feelings for her and stating outright that she didn’t want to play with his feelings because he’s her friend. Then it showed her not entertaining his question of “if he wasn’t around, would things be different between us?” even if her answer might’ve been yes, because again, he’s her friend and she has no desire to play with his feelings or lead him on. It is, in fact, exactly the right message to show Ladybug being upfront with how she feels, only having a change of heart about him after she asked him to adjust his behavior towards her and saw that he not only listened, but is also being more genuine with her and showing her a new side of him. Obviously this change of heart is going to come with internal conflict on her end, that much is inevitable.

I mean it's nice that after everything that happened she is falling for him now, but by the nature of the situation her having changed her mind AFTER "Glaciator 2" just "ain't Chat Noir's problem anymore" and therefore her developing feelings for him should include that factor as a solid main concern. I'm not saying it isn't allowed to happen at all anymore and she missed her chance, but the Ladynoir situation isn't like Adrinettes. Marinette herself has never been rejected by Adrien because she never let him know while in Ladynoir Ladybug made her rejection pretty clearly heard in a final way in season 4. That isn't going to not have happened for the entire show just because it isn't to Marinettes liking anymore.

Ladynoir and Adrinette are not the same dynamics or situations.

It's a really, REALLY bad message for the children watching the show in my opinion to just say "Yeah Ladybug rejects Chat Noir and went through pretty harsh means to get it through his head in the end, but what can we do? She fell in love with him afterwards so isn't it nice that she is now giving him permission to love her? :)"

No it's not. She said no and made it clear that he has to respect that no. Getting rejected is not a one-sided action you know? The person DOING THE REJECTION has to adjust their behavior as well, the rejected person isn't the only one who has to accept the answer "no".

When you say "no" you have to accept and respect as well that you said "no" because the other person isn't owed to be accessible for you to play with their emotions just because YOU now change your mind.

Rejection is a serious topic and, again, just because Marinette is a girl doesn't it mean that she should be narratively allowed to just "take back" her rejections of 4 seasons now when she pleases to. That's a horrible example for little girls watching, boys aren't your toys.

I hope this show isn't going to make me watch another bad #girlpower message on the boys expense just because "feminism is giving women the opportunity to choose!", because yes, that IS right. And she chose NO.

But feminism doesn't mean that girls need to be validated in the choice to be disrespectful and while playing with other people's emotions.

Marinette rejected Chat Noir for 4 seasons and we even had episodes like "Weredad" were she got him in serious trouble and HURT because of her just claiming she is in love with him as if that's nothing she needs to take seriously.

I'm not going to really expect the show to teach a good lesson to girls here, because this show is only really concerned about everything happening on the girls term and to her benefit while the morality often just gets thrown out of the window.

Why should Chat Noir turn Ladybug down now that her feelings for him have changed? Out of spite because she rejected him before? To make her pay for all of her rejections?

Why would she respect the “no” when the “no” is a “yes” now? The thing is… sometimes people do have epiphanies and change their mind. Especially at 14 with the whirlwind of a partnership they have had. I don’t see what this has to do with feminism.

Ladybug had to give him that hard no in season 4. If you’d ignored the rest of the series, it seemed harsh. But if you accept the fact that Chat Noir has been hitting on her for 3 seasons after her initial no, after she weathered his tantrums in Glaciator and Frozer with kindness and after so many other no’s, her strong reaction in Glaciator 2 made perfect sense. You know whose fault it is that Chat Noir got so many strong, repeated “no”s? Chat Noir’s. Because he didn’t take the first one for an answer. He could have accepted her at her word, left her alone and now that she’s accepting of him, it wouldn’t seem so harsh for him to accept her back. That’s on him. She gave him a harsh no because he took it to that extreme and wouldn’t back down.

Take Adrienette. It’s not just Marinette being a girl that makes this more smooth. Marinette hasn’t just never admitted her feelings to Adrien. Marinette has also never hounded Adrien after the fact. Her approach is very different and, although she can be creepy, she has ultimately been more respectful of Adrien’s boundaries than Chat Noir has been to Ladybug.

The closest thing to a rejection that Adrien gave Marinette is telling her he was into Kagami and in love with another girl. Marinette didn’t respond to this by pushing at him. She internalized it, became sad but ultimately tried to help him and stepped aside in the end. If she had hit on him at that point in the game, she would have been rejected (as proven in Weredad where Chat Noir rejects Marinette). And just based on her actions toward him with Kagami, she would have taken it infinitely better than Chat Noir who seemed to take it as a challenge.

I also don’t see how she played with his feelings in ‘Weredad’. She was Marinette who he had no feelings for and she panicked when she said what she said.

She never played with Chat’s emotions. She told him her boundaries and he overstepped again and again. She’s allowed to change her mind. And, if she does, the only reason her repeated “no”s will bother him so much in retrospect is because he brought them on. This has nothing to do with feminism. I also didn’t like the way Kagami practically bullied him into dating her. And if Marinette had been the pushy one who couldn’t take no for an answer, I’d be saying the same.

The only area where Marinette needs to be apologetic to Chat Noir is concerning their partnership. She kept him in the dark a lot and made light of his position. I hope THAT is delved into a bit more so he can reestablish trust with her.

TL/DR : it is a GOOD message to little girls (and boys) that you should only say “yes” if your feelings change. Not because someone keeps disrespecting your boundaries.

I never said Chat Noir is supposed to reject her now out of spite because I never even talked about Adriens reaction to her changing her mind. I also never said Adrien is a saint and did nothing wrong, you twisted my words into something I never said.

But it IS interesting to me how YOU make Marinette out to be a blameless little Saint who never did anything wrong regarding Chat Noir and the love aspect between them. You did something I didn't do and then accused ME of it. Interesting.

What I said is that Marinette rejected Chat Noir for 4 seasons with the final one in "Glaciator 2" being pretty clear on the matter that the no is a no. You cannot tell me that you don't understand what I mean when I say that the person doing the rejecting several times and so directly and over a long period of time also has to take accountability for their very own words. That's how interpersonal relationships work and that's how reality in general works.

If you tell a person 15 times (exaggerated number, calm down) that no you don't wanna meet them in your free time and you just wanna be collegues, you DO have to accept and respect that you said "no" 15 times. It doesn't matter what the other person did, I'm talking about YOU and YOUR accountability in your actions and words. Yes, you have the right to change your mind later and have it be YOU who asks the 16th time, but you cannot stand there and pretend like the other 15 no's didn't happen or just don't count out of the sudden because that's mean towards you. Yes you have the right to change your mind but you aren't owed anything either.

And you cannot just approach the situation with the mindset of "Oh, I have the right to change my mind isn't that nice :D I see no reason why I should be careful of the other persons feelings when I suddenly propose meeting in private to be friends, something I previously made very clear 15 times I have no interest in and wanted them to stop asking for! I dont have to take anything I previously said into concideration or adjust my behavior because in this situation MY feelings and MY wants are all that matters :D"

Your answer isn't just a mere placeholder without meaning so you can change your mind however you please. Marinettes feelings aren't the only thing that get to matter in this, you are aware of that right?

And it doesn't matter how hard the show has broken every single one of its own backbones til now and will likely continue to do so to make everything cater to Marinette and her feelings, the default situation we are working with right now of Ladybug having turned down Chat Noir for 4 seasons and in a very direct and final way in "Glaciator 2" just for her NOW in season 5 starting to develop feelings for him, is not going to suddenly change into one where only one her feelings matter because that's not how a healthy interpersonal Relationship works.

Her changing her mind is only ONE half of the two-people relationship.

And if Ladybug were to confess to Chat Noir he wouldn't be obligated to start dating her either, because HIS feelings after the rejection having gone through his skull are allowed to change too. The person who did the prior rejecting doesn't hold the sole privilege of being allowed to change their mind.

And if that were the case in Canon? That if Ladybug were to confess her feelings openly and without concidering her prior rejections of him and Chat Noir says no, because it took him so much to get over her in the first place and he has moved on for good? What then?

Are we gonna throw a hissfit because its "mean" towards Marinette that the person she has rejected for 4 seasons isn't just happily agreeing because he finally got permission to love her? Is he obligated to date her now just because that's what he wanted before, when now after she told him it's not gonna happen he doesn't view the situation as the same anymore?

No of course not. And yes, this still included Marinette having the right to change her mind, its almost like I never put that in question.

The point of what I said was that this show has a massive problem with catering everything that happenes to Marinette, her feelings so SHE benefits of it. And that this has already send some pretty bad feminist messages, especially in season 4, that people straight up gave up on the show for. It doesn't matter if you don't like that, this is the case and people are pretty damn vocal about their issues with the feminism of the show and the way only Marinette gets to matter. Not every criticism is sexism.

When I say that I hope that season 5 will remember that Ladybug turned down Chat Noir for 4 seasons then I mean that I hope is that this show will teach little girls the important lesson that yes, they can reject boys they don't like, but a rejection isn't some mere powermove they can use to stand their ground, a rejection is a damn interpersonal statement (especially the way it was hammered in here in Miraculous for 4 seasons) with MEANING.

That they are empowered to say "no" but that this also means the other person has the right to change their mind as well. I want little girls to finally get teached the important but not so nice sides of their empowerment because power comes with responsibility.

A rejection is a rejection. Not some powermove to use mindlessly but a statement that will absolutely come with social/interpersonal consequences. And changing your mind on a rejection is not the one sided right its made out to be. And therefore ESPECIALLY a main character like Marinette, who has done a fuck ton of rejecting of so many kinds in this show and yet hardly ever respected being told "no", inconvenient rules or other people's boundaries (ESPECIALLY Chat Noirs, are you kidding me?) should be portrayed to go about the Ladynoir situation alot more careful and concidered than the reply I just got.

I don't care how hard the show has made everything else but Marinette and her feelings insignificant and will likely continue to make everything cater to her in future, my initial post was about that I hope that the show will remember in this regard that something else than Marinette and her convenience should get to matter again in the issue ahead of us.

And that people don't like it that I bring up these moral issues regarding how our female main character is depicted handling important situations is something I 1) am very much aware of and 2) am NOT getting less motivated to do cause every time I hold the narrative around the main character of this internationally extremely popular family cartoon that praises itself for its feminism, to normal moral standards I get replies of people who not only competely miss the point of what I was saying, I get replies of people telling me why said main character the entire show caters it's messages to has done nothing wrong EVER and/ or shouldn't be held to the regular moral standards and that their mistakes can not be criticized, talked about or held accountable for because the main character is justified™ and its everyones else's job to just understand HER and not be angry, instead of finding/ talking about a fair way for every character involved to handle this now.

When I make posts like these since the disaster of season 4, I do it because I'm bringing up moral issues I find badly handled or in danger of being badly handled regarding this extremely popular feminist cartoon and its female feminist icon main character, because this show is extremely biased in who their messaged actually benefit from and in a show like this with so much grey area targeted at young children, I refuse to not be vocal about my criticism and concerns. This show is influencing ALOT of people, especially children and it already shows.

And since this show makes everything about Marinette and is biased towards her in the name of "feminism" and "female empowerment" my primary criticisms are about her. Since frankly, hardly anything else gets to matter or isn't made into her favor over time.

I am NEVER hating on Marinette herself as a character who is a very flawed person but tries her best, I'm criticizing the narrative around her in how she is utilized as such a flawed person. Especially when then the narrative make things cater entirely to her when some plot lines weren't even about her in the first place, because THAT'S were the really questionable messages are getting send out to the viewers.

Im pointing out and criticizing the moral messages I find dangerous or even harmful of a highly popular and influential family cartoon because this shows narrative messages are made of two main topics: female empowerment and the grey area of conflicts.

And while this combination isn't automatically dangerous (of course not) this show unfortunately CANNOT always properly handle its messages and presents some serious double standards. And therefore, since the show itself takes care of Marinette so the viewer understands her and she gets a happy ending that is fair to her and treats her well and respectful, I AM HERE to point out some narrative moral issues im concerned regarding the world AROUND her.

Because the main character isn't the only thing that matters in a healthy message and also the hardest part of story to get right for the viewers at home and more balanced pieces of family media know that. Marinette is not the target of so much criticism just because of narrative issues or sexism, it's also simply because of her being the main character.

But you’re right about one thing. We just aren’t going to agree here. Because it doesn’t matter how many times Marinette said no imo. It was still the same “no” that she gave him in the first place and she only reiterated it because he asked. How is that a “power move”? I never said that it wasn’t up to Chat Noir if he wants to accept or not. I never said he was obligated to. Just that, by her saying “no” and then having her feelings change, she is not in the wrong and it wouldn’t be bad IF he chooses to accept because, as you said, it takes two. And now they BOTH have the same feelings. “No” made sense before because that was not true. I don’t see this as a “catered to Marinette” situation. If she had dated him before, would it not have been unfairly “catered to Chat Noir” because only HIS feelings mattered? Again, he has the right to reject her. Never said he didn’t. I just hope it’s on legitimate grounds if he does (trust issues, end of universe scare). Not spite.

Also what is this about them meeting as friends? She suddenly wants to meet as friends? When did that happen? You mean when they were playing cards in the 2nd episode of season 5 during a patrol? Ladynoir has had plenty of moments prior to this season where they are kind of just hanging out eating ice cream or talking during patrol. Ladybug hasn’t changed anything about that dynamic? She hasn’t asked Chat Noir out... I’m confused there. Maybe it’s a Bible Spoiler?

As for the show catering to Marinette- you are right to a point, but not where the unrequited love aspect is concerned. The show has catered to Marinette largely in terms of the power imbalance between the Ladybug and the Black Cat miraculous and what Chat Noir is allowed to do during battle. The issue is primarily with their equality and their partnership, which I acknowledged at the end of my first post. But as far as the love interest between them? Adrien, regardless of if he rejected her as much as Ladybug rejected Chat Noir (because he kept trying), wasn’t interested in Marinette either for the first 4 seasons. He pointedly dated another girl. How is that “catering to Marinette”? How was that a benefit to her? She’s been suffering on that side of the unrequited love square too.

As for the “empowerment” of saying no, this is where we HEAVILY disagree so I guess it is what it is. Ladybug’s rejection of Chat Noir was never meant to be a feminist “power move”. It was simply a rejection because she liked Adrien and then became worse when Chat Blanc happened. She wasn’t into him. She didn’t do it to have power over him and I don’t think that’s how the writers meant it. Even if there was a lesson in there to respect peoples’ wishes... how is that a bad thing? I don’t understand where this is coming from.

I do hope that, if they date, the Chat Blanc drama is addressed. I think there is nothing wrong with Ladybug changing her mind after so many “no”s, BUT Chat Blanc is the elephant in the room and needs to be discussed before it takes a romantic route.

I mean it's nice that after everything that happened she is falling for him now, but by the nature of the situation her having changed her mind AFTER "Glaciator 2" just "ain't Chat Noir's problem anymore" and therefore her developing feelings for him should include that factor as a solid main concern. I'm not saying it isn't allowed to happen at all anymore and she missed her chance, but the Ladynoir situation isn't like Adrinettes. Marinette herself has never been rejected by Adrien because she never let him know while in Ladynoir Ladybug made her rejection pretty clearly heard in a final way in season 4. That isn't going to not have happened for the entire show just because it isn't to Marinettes liking anymore.

Ladynoir and Adrinette are not the same dynamics or situations.

It's a really, REALLY bad message for the children watching the show in my opinion to just say "Yeah Ladybug rejects Chat Noir and went through pretty harsh means to get it through his head in the end, but what can we do? She fell in love with him afterwards so isn't it nice that she is now giving him permission to love her? :)"

No it's not. She said no and made it clear that he has to respect that no. Getting rejected is not a one-sided action you know? The person DOING THE REJECTION has to adjust their behavior as well, the rejected person isn't the only one who has to accept the answer "no".

When you say "no" you have to accept and respect as well that you said "no" because the other person isn't owed to be accessible for you to play with their emotions just because YOU now change your mind.

Rejection is a serious topic and, again, just because Marinette is a girl doesn't it mean that she should be narratively allowed to just "take back" her rejections of 4 seasons now when she pleases to. That's a horrible example for little girls watching, boys aren't your toys.

I hope this show isn't going to make me watch another bad #girlpower message on the boys expense just because "feminism is giving women the opportunity to choose!", because yes, that IS right. And she chose NO.

But feminism doesn't mean that girls need to be validated in the choice to be disrespectful and while playing with other people's emotions.

Marinette rejected Chat Noir for 4 seasons and we even had episodes like "Weredad" were she got him in serious trouble and HURT because of her just claiming she is in love with him as if that's nothing she needs to take seriously.

I'm not going to really expect the show to teach a good lesson to girls here, because this show is only really concerned about everything happening on the girls term and to her benefit while the morality often just gets thrown out of the window.

Why should Chat Noir turn Ladybug down now that her feelings for him have changed? Out of spite because she rejected him before? To make her pay for all of her rejections?

Why would she respect the “no” when the “no” is a “yes” now? The thing is… sometimes people do have epiphanies and change their mind. Especially at 14 with the whirlwind of a partnership they have had. I don’t see what this has to do with feminism.

Ladybug had to give him that hard no in season 4. If you’d ignored the rest of the series, it seemed harsh. But if you accept the fact that Chat Noir has been hitting on her for 3 seasons after her initial no, after she weathered his tantrums in Glaciator and Frozer with kindness and after so many other no’s, her strong reaction in Glaciator 2 made perfect sense. You know whose fault it is that Chat Noir got so many strong, repeated “no”s? Chat Noir’s. Because he didn’t take the first one for an answer. He could have accepted her at her word, left her alone and now that she’s accepting of him, it wouldn’t seem so harsh for him to accept her back. That’s on him. She gave him a harsh no because he took it to that extreme and wouldn’t back down.

Take Adrienette. It’s not just Marinette being a girl that makes this more smooth. Marinette hasn’t just never admitted her feelings to Adrien. Marinette has also never hounded Adrien after the fact. Her approach is very different and, although she can be creepy, she has ultimately been more respectful of Adrien’s boundaries than Chat Noir has been to Ladybug.

The closest thing to a rejection that Adrien gave Marinette is telling her he was into Kagami and in love with another girl. Marinette didn’t respond to this by pushing at him. She internalized it, became sad but ultimately tried to help him and stepped aside in the end. If she had hit on him at that point in the game, she would have been rejected (as proven in Weredad where Chat Noir rejects Marinette). And just based on her actions toward him with Kagami, she would have taken it infinitely better than Chat Noir who seemed to take it as a challenge.

I also don’t see how she played with his feelings in ‘Weredad’. She was Marinette who he had no feelings for and she panicked when she said what she said.

She never played with Chat’s emotions. She told him her boundaries and he overstepped again and again. She’s allowed to change her mind. And, if she does, the only reason her repeated “no”s will bother him so much in retrospect is because he brought them on. This has nothing to do with feminism. I also didn’t like the way Kagami practically bullied him into dating her. And if Marinette had been the pushy one who couldn’t take no for an answer, I’d be saying the same.

The only area where Marinette needs to be apologetic to Chat Noir is concerning their partnership. She kept him in the dark a lot and made light of his position. I hope THAT is delved into a bit more so he can reestablish trust with her.

TL/DR : it is a GOOD message to little girls (and boys) that you should only say “yes” if your feelings change. Not because someone keeps disrespecting your boundaries.

I'm not a fan of Lila, but I was wondering why it's such a big deal in the fandom that Lila is neglected by her mom cuz I've seen that take a lot of times and Lila had maybe one interaction with her mom, her mom seems busy, but usually I see this is over-exaggerated as if she's as bad as Audrey. But Lila IS someone who craves for a lot of attention, she wouldn't if her mom was not bad at parenting. I mean why else does she lie to get people to worship her? Why else would she tell them she's with celebrities instead of just being sick or unable to show up in school? Why else does she want to be a model with all attention concentrated on her? The kid is obviously desperate for attention more than a regular character here. So I looked it up in Wiki and it's worse than I thought-

Marinette's parents believing her that she has too much homework and not enough time is believable but I always found it strange that Lila's mom believed her daughter so easily that school is closed due to akumas. She also didn't appear in Ladybug when Marinette's parents appeared and in Risk Lila was at the airport with a whole different woman.

I thought that's either her other mom because we don't know if her mom has a husband or a wife or if she's actually married, but we don't know who that is. I can't think of anything. So I don't think all this can be a coincidence. While many believe her mom wasn't invited in school due to plot, I think now that she is so busy she either doesn't have time or she doesn't even notice what's going on in her daughter's life.

But as far as I remember, it wasn't that bad and Wiki can be false, so I searched for more evidence and-

And now THIS. It's the opposite of what Lila's Wiki page says. And based on everything I watched in the show her mom can't be that good but she also can't be that bad.

So I watched this scene carefully (cuz that's the only representation of their relationship we have in the whole show):

Adrien, on the other hand, already has the regard. His father and all of Paris are very interested in him as an idea- Adrien Agreste the famous model actor. But his father rarely shows him affection or kind words and he’s been kept away from people his entire life (I like to think his mother was affectionate but she’s gone). He wants to be loved and cared for, not just for the idea of who he is, but as a person. He wants hugs and affirming words. So he’s extremely accommodating toward other people.

To hold me down

To make me fret

Or make me frown

You have strings

But you can see

There are no strings on me

It’s time to talk, once again, about Yuri!!! on Ice, because that’s basically all I think about.

We know Viktor is lonely, that’s a fact. But the depth of his loneliness is really hard to grasp, I think.

Some people characterize it as depression. I have, in the past, and I think there’s truth to that as well. But more importantly, I think, is that Viktor feels unanchored in his life, and he’s floating (skating) away.

This is going to get long, so more under the cut.

So the YOI team is really pushing this codependent narrative. The fans aren’t making it up. Victuuri IS incredibly codependent and, were this a darker anime, it could go to some really interesting places.

Personally, I feel like Victuuri is a realistic dark-fic goldmine, but you very rarely see people depict it as anything but extremely romanticized. There is something idealistically romantic in thinking of yourself as “the missing piece” of someone else, but in practice- obviously- that’s a pretty rocky road to go down.

People are going to use fanfiction to live out their most ill-advised, problematic fantasies no matter what so I wouldn’t trouble yourself too much over it, but ideally, I would like for both canon and fanon to address the holes in Victuuri more. Not just because it removes the unrealistic label of ‘HEALTHIEST COUPLE EVAR!’ but also because it would just be REALLY interesting to read about/ watch. I would love if the movie dealt with the codependency.

Because I TRUST you with every white woman claiming “victim” after a hug and a kiss on the cheek they waited 8 years to complain about, there are ACTUAL victims of color being ignored immediately after their assault. 

You think Funimation would care?

You think RoosterTeeth would’ve acted as fast as they did?

But some fucking tweets by some PROVEN LIARS gets a man fired in .2 seconds as if that’s sufficient evidence.

If these women were ACTUALLY assaulted, they wouldn’t have tweeted about it, they wouldn’t have just told their *friends*, 

they would’ve went to the authorities and you can’t tell me “they were scared no one would believe them”

Hell they ain’t too scared to call the cops on some black people in a park

so they can’t call the cops or even security on people that supposedly physically assaulted them vs a bunch of black people that they’ve never met that “scares them”

This is why I keep telling these people who have careers (not just men) to stop letting these white women get too close to you. Because 99% of them are snakes waiting to strike and they WILL drag you down for some dumb shit because white women are still seen as “innocent” and “child-like” and THEY KNOW THIS and they WILL use you to further their selfish agenda one false flag at a time until they get what they want

If you wanna make it about race, someone could spin an entirely different story about how entitled white men in positions of power have been getting away with this shit for years. But focus on the white women I guess since that fits your narrative better. I’m so sorry to Beyonce, Nicki, Phaedra and the other innocent black people in these gifs that you used to uplift a conniving white man and make it look like you were defending women of color.

I’m a black woman and I believe the white women in this case. And I’m not talking about hugs and kisses since Monica Rial, Jamie Marchi (who already have clout by the way) among others accused him of more than that. I’m talking about pushing past clear boundaries.

I met Vic three times and usually he was very nice. But there was a red flag the one time I asked for a picture with him. I stood next to him for the picture and he starts pulling me in very close. Ok so he’s touchy. Fine. But I don’t want to be that close. I pulled back so we were standing shoulder to shoulder. This dude FEELS me pulling back and pulls EVEN harder to press me against his chest. I thought maybe he didn’t feel me pulling back the first time and pull back again. He yanks me so hard I almost fall. So I thought ‘Hey he is obviously insisting so I’ll just let him do what he wants”. Thankfully I was wearing my cat ears and one poked him in the cheek so he couldn’t pull me in even further.

I don’t consider this assault but I consider it a HUGE red flag of someone who doesn’t respect other peoples’ boundaries. Not every white woman is lying just because white women have lied in the past. And not every white man is a poor, defensive innocent caught in the glare of the evil white woman. My own con staff experiences with Vic being an ass and personal experience with him not knowing boundaries opened my eyes to what kind of person he could be and so when these allegations started appearing in droves over a DECADE ago, I suspected there might be some truth to them and when his own COLLEAGUES spoke out against him recently, I couldn’t help but believe.

So that’s  a black woman’s take on it. Am I clout chasing and raising false flags too?

SMH.